WWL>Topics>>America's first serial killer, H.H. Holmes, as discussed by his great-great-grandson.

America's first serial killer, H.H. Holmes, as discussed by his great-great-grandson.

Jun 30, 2017|

Jason Hawes & JV Johnson talk with Jeff Mudgett - the great-great-grandson of America's first and most notorious serial killer, H. H. Holmes (Herman Webster Mudgett). Not only was Holmes a brutal killer of the late 19th century, but his methods, and his "Murder Castle" are still incomprehensible by today's standards. 6/30/2017 - Beyond reality Radio with Jason Hawes & JV Johnson

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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)

I cannot be owned by scientific method. You're six. Send him tall and. Creature that's been seen my many little life you know. And de Ferran good morning mining boom Herron online inning and news features and yeah me. He lying then yeah real mania apple is lying game. It also shape shifting mentioned you. My experience it's an experience. And I. It's Thursday on the West Coast Friday and the students many are stuck in between welcome to beyond reality revealing myself Jason Hosni always awesome. JV Jones it's great to be here as always this is kind of far at all it's been as you said Friday morning on the east so it's kind of our Friday here as we get ready for Roman Holiday weekend great to have fourth Julie weekend so is a great time the year he had this is going to be actress. All of the Tonight Show absolutely we've talked about this and for awhile yet at all especially with all the well I mean with all the shows that are coming up on this there was great Netflix showed on the mound HH Holmes Tom. Imus and his subject tonight is HH Holmes this but he knows but. Yeah we're going to be talking Jeff much. About I'm about as answer about his book bloodstains and that new show these guys coming on the History Channel called American ripper yet and I'm Jeffs is the what great great grandson of HH Holmes who lived in the late nineteenth century. Moved all over the country. His notorious home was in Chicago it's called the murder Kessler castle murderers in the white America so yeah unbelievable love lea strange place it was a I think it was torn down in 1936 unfortunately it's not there today to be able to. You know be toward or whatever mention do an investigation there we'll look at some of them if you you can still find some of the floor plants on line. And all on our CMO policies and Amazon. Radios FaceBook page FaceBook dot com slash B radio. And it is downright creepy I mean the place was just set up for the purpose of torture and murder. At what it wants yet and confusing and trapping people to immediately after making you really can be if he turned the whole thing into a game. A sport in America I guess you'd you don't refer to a new Amores then. Ended its just downright its tariff I can't wait for the show it it starts June July 11. And I'm comics or are we look forward yeah I'm anxious to hear more about that I'm also very. Anxious to hear about Ted gest personal journey come I know that as he started to preacher researched the stuff he kind of started battling some demons of his own messy grappled with this information on upbeat it's going to be tough it's going to be very difficult and not only did he just look at his I was in over his family tree heat. Worked but he also when he realized he was related to HH Holmes. He started to dig into those crimes and he believes there were many hundreds of victims of this man he is he himself confessed to 27 murders. On some of those can in the confession actually turned out to not be true because the people were still alive. But there is a lot of thought that there were far more victims that. More than wherever you realized he confessed 27 but there were nine or confirmed. Though some reports actually say that there were a 200. Isn't you or more yeah yeah. Soul in 20225. To under fifty people I mean it's it I don't even on to say about. Yet in case it was trying to you know make the connection here HH Holmes was an alias is real name was Herman Webster mudge it. And of course just Jeff much it has a direct descendant. So it's gonna be a great show if you haven't yet head over to FaceBook dot com slash beyond reality radio. Like to FaceBook page. Then head over to be on reality radio dot com you can find all the stations we air on were great courage by clicking the station unless we're we're going to be updating that with even more stations soon might the next week or so. Arm or you can download the free iPhone. And android app right there on the via the web site which allows you to listen the show alive catch past episodes also join us and Chet. Regardless or from the website just click the go listen I'll listen life. It commensurate to the Jeremi Johnson from their we'll talk to us. Yeah and of course tomorrow night is going to be a best of program as every Friday is and then because of the fourth of July holiday we'll have a couple of repeats on Monday night in twos and it's who won't be lives. Horrific has to be Tuesday morning and Wednesday morning depending who you are will probably be at the hospital having her fingers. Reattach it quite the fireworks. You know somebody chatted earlier said he gave you guys just went off the fireworks in the do the show I said now. If we did that something would definitely blow up a lot of fireworks Laura Bush that would be quite this area Sally we don't have enough that we're trying to work or aren't sure exactly where you can make your reiterated bargains and aren't there yet this'll gunpowder and and matches it's so we need to add to that mix. But when we do come back life on Wednesday night doctor Barbie breath that will be joining us she's an experienced teacher published author prophetic voice a dream interpreter and healing minister level let's talk to her about. And then Thursday latest McCants who is the numbers lady she's got over twenty years of experience to armor studying numerology. And she says that she. Can take someone's name. And their date of birth and then discover exactly who they really are when that information so we'll see that's going to be it can be very dangerous I think he could be a but it will be taken listener calls. For all that and of course we'll take some tonight to. The numbers 8446877669. Again until freed a 446877669. You wanna take quick break Jim because I'm sure we've got a lot to talk with Jeff about so. Are you listen Jason GBM. Yeah I'm really revealed back. Game scary time might be over for this year but there's another scary kind in the works you owe it to yourself to check out the details notice Garrett Collins dot com that's Garrett con. Dot com sign up for the email list and be informed you need to know what's going on with scary con because it's the best weekend of the year scare coming clean celebrities fans. Vendors parties panel discussions film premieres and so much more it's a weekend you'll never forget it everyone is welcome visit the website scary time dot com that spirit con dot com. Sir it's beyond reality raiders Jason. Teleconferencing 844677669. We've been a very very excited about tonight's program group bringing in our guests in just a few moments Jeff much it. He's an author and an attorney. He's also the great great grandson of HH Holmes who is. Noted to be America's first series serial killer. At least by that is the definition and the standards by which show you remarked that title today. And day is his his crimes are notorious. His life is is almost the stuff of of myth. Just an unbelievable story. Jeff tells it in a book called bloodstains by the way the website is bloodstains the book dot com. And there's just so much talk about when to bring Jeff federal. And I am but I want everybody else and understand that we're not excited because we're talking about serial killer ray it's it's more just trying to understand. Palm I guess just trying to understand the life and and what was really going through the head of HH Holmes I think that that's more where it is because it's just. It's so all there. That he I don't know he just you look at the stories you look at. Actually the design of the murder castle that was bill and it's just so intriguing to try to comprehend how. This is possible and how these things could run through somebody's head. Well it's just approached perfect example of the truth being stranger than fiction and you know there's there's no better way to. To illustrate that point in the story whereabouts talk about with. Which Jeff. Well yes let's bring her our guest and Jeff much Jeff welcome to beyond reality radio so great to have in the program tonight. Thanks guys it's an honor idea I'm really privileged to be beyond reality. Well thank you Jeff and I united talked and I'm I'm really I told you I'm looking forward to this tonight. You know it's. It's a story that needs to be told it's been kind of is no way. For so long wait when you compare to like Jack the Ripper. The media and locker comes out with a new theory about Jack the Ripper every year. And that story about HH all the regional. Killer that should be told about. Kind of has lie dormant for so long and and then when you had Eric Larson came out that great book at white city. And now movies being made about it and finally history you mean chance. I gotta tell you this is the story that needs to beatle. And that's a great point because I was introduced to the HH Holmes stories fairly recently and I may have been in next Netflix documentary or something and I just so I thought why haven't heard about this. I mean this is something that needs to be told and studied and and understood and before we get into the details of a third Jeff tell us what about yourself I mean you view fed quite a personal journey. You don't lend journey is the right way is the right way to describe that I was at a California lawyer. For forty years. Idea. Going on happily at a at a beautiful Stanley. Living living for all those things we think are what creates its access. When finally my grandfather told the family our secrets. About where we came from and it all came when it does. I knew I knew that things that I had considered about myself as strange maybe idiosyncrasies. I knew what to look into them more her. What he had told us. It's why I was here a lie to pay it had to do sure people. Well Anna and I think that's got to be one of the toughest things is. Yeah everybody loves to look back at their family tree and see how well you know some more migrant farm and this is what Marty is my great grandfather did. But you looking back here fairly sure he has to be intriguing it all in one aspect but also terrifying. In another. Well there's no doubt about that when he when he looked back when you have your grand Butler finally. You know relief relinquish. Hounds so to speak and give the Stanley secretly. He hadn't even told my grandmother guys who wouldn't have married in match each and he told her true. And wait when you realize. This is this isn't just killer. This is a man who created the murder castle in preparation for the millions of people who came to Chicago to see the world's spare the world's fair were Edison and cancel all these incredible. You know. Scientists and ending and church were acts and he built this thing. So that when young innocent women came to Chicago on nick at a hotel. To idols. From the biggest Ferris wheel ever created or built. They stated in its place and he could do within as he wished. As this story was being. Told to you from you you know your family is as that you're that was kind of an awakening if you will. And for sort of first question is. Was it not understood because he didn't realize that. HH Holmes Romaine was much it mean was that there was that part of the problem. Is the pseudonym fooled you with three of the track is that how we. Remain anonymous and your family for so long. Well that's a great question now all he the man had 31 aliases so. Thirty what. 31 to Chicago Tribune called him the greatest con artist that ever struck Chicago. RA. The the Harper's magazine. Called his murder Cassel took place that god allowed evil corrupt amok so so week. Talking about a serial killer we're talking about. And evil genius and when when you really think back about it and the fact that this was in America. The real doctor Frankenstein work where a basement. Was that. Where furnaces. Absent bass line pits. Were created so that he could torture and experiment on innocent victims and then remove their human. Remains so that the law enforcement would catch him. And he was largely successful. It's it's something you you know you guys when you think your body you think not and this doesn't happen in America. Well yes you kind of don't think that this happens really anywhere to that extreme of course you know people people murdered all the time but. Just somebody who put so much time effort and forethought into. Null and when you're when I'm. When you go back to that scene up this world spur were twenty million people around the world and is. And when you wind Asian writing that bears all our niche. And seen from the top of that ride a murder castle two miles away. It it gives a different and give it some perspective to the whole story. What I try to do in writing bloodstains. And getting History Channel to help me tell the real story. Is. Maybe to give a different perspective. Or people in Chicago in America. To see that this kind of evil. While not celebrating and I know and your guys opening of the story was what's well. We're not celebrating. This evil this serial killer but we wanna try to understand what made a man like that tick. Here's a man who went in the university. A Michigan Ann Arbor you had a medical degree it's had one of the highest act in selects I use ever or he couldn't be there. It could've been the inventor. Of drugs or pharmaceuticals that that prevents it illness instead. That a conscious decision. That he wanted to murder. That he wanted to find out what caused. Innocence to eagle two it is too is its stature and his elegance is. It's hypnotist and those things and I got to tell you way to help like your show. Will go further understand that there is this evil human life we need to understand it in need to prevent it from further. So as your family was being told by I think you sit your grandfather the truth about all of us. What was going on amongst your family mean and you personally how did you handle that news and but how did it change the way you sought about your life. In all I I wrote a whole chapter about that end. Well when when I ran by the revealed secret. We it was a quiet stoic man and you know looking back. And I didn't like my grandpa. I didn't even Colin Graham are used to call him uncle 'cause I knew it would jury immigrant father it. But but this was a man who knew when I was a little boy I'd love to fish used to fish. But my grandfather never invite you need legal machine which it could try to steal bat that emotion when it is all. And I hated him. But now looking back at what he had to live I mean we're talking about my grandfather's. Grand. Who was. Really the OJ Simpson at that time was when this man was on trial. For murder every newspaper in America was there covering this story. This was a man who inspired his own lawyers and conducted his own defense despite having never wrong to law school or learned and yeah yeah. In the methods that trial. Trial and still debate some of the methods guys. That he used at this trial art talk to lawyers. And law school that date that's the genius he was. While we're talking with Jeff much if he's an attorney and an author his book is called blood stains. And at the website is bloodstains the book dot com just as the great great grandson of the notorious. And do I guess in evil genius HH Holmes and we're gonna continue talking about that we're gonna have to go to break here Jack. Yeah I know a lot of people are already lining up is they've got questions for you and will be opening up the phones in just a little while we just wanna get a little more into the story. And a lot more information out there so. But yeah so way if you haven't yet had over FaceBook dot com slash beyond reality radio me she'd like to FaceBook page ahead to be on reality radio dot com find any decrease east we are on across the country. Or download the free iPhone and android app which allows you to listen live this last past shows and also join me online chat so. You listen Jason. And TV I'm beyond really revealed that. They beyond reality radio friends and you know most of the guests featured on beyond reality Radiohead books and other interesting offerings for our listeners and now we've made it even easier for you to get ahold of them just visit the beyond reality read your web. Get beyond reality radio dot com and click on the gas tab in then you better from there you'll see recent beyond reality radio guests with a short find help and some of the things they're offering are beyond reality radio listeners took. Look on whatever you're interested in into the order straight from there it couldn't be easier that's beyond reality radio dot com click on the gas tap in the menu and then simply sit back enjoy beyond reality. Don't forget that's beyond reality radio dot com just click on the guest menu headings. And then you'll find that you want and thanks for listening to beyond reality radio. It's been ameliorated Jason came. All thanks joining us what you're listening to a great radio stations during the show across the country or you listening online and we welcome you all to the show. Yes welcomed the honor rally radio and we are talking about. Really interesting topics and talking about. HH Holmes which are America's most notorious serial killer. Yeah and it's such a such an inch to topic yet and you know it was the point is thirty been made and we I think you're talking about last night as well you know were world a lot of us are familiar with people like Ted Bundy and Ed dean in and who's the got a dressed up like the clown there around mesa now -- only missing -- way -- and it's -- very good you know to hear how he John Wingate I think you pray that it it is those are those of the names that we're used to hearing about in the role pretty well contemporary. But this particular person HH Holmes. Which was I was an alias by the way really is a story that hasn't been holed up enough and done as our guest will continue to talk about Jeff my duties and author and attorney he's written a book called blood stains. Arm which is about. His great great grandfather HH Holmes the website is blood stains the book dot com but Jeff. You know do something to be said for understanding. People who do things like this you know there's you learn things and you learn. How do me a spot this kind of behavior earlier you learn how to maybe prevent it in. When you seize certain characteristics in people early in their lives and that's a lot of what we have to do here when we study these stories as an. There's no there's no doubt about that and that's. And that's one of the reasons why when History Channel and arts and entertainment contacted me about turning my book in new television series. Column titled American ripper. They say they didn't wanted to do this celebrate. This evil this killer and they wanted to do it so that would I'll learn to understand. What made it human and capable of doing these terrible things and possibly preventing it from ever happening again. And as we learn more more about the story I mean. We're gonna get into the details of this did you on you've studied it you know up and down and sideways some but as we learn more about the story we recognize that some. There are characteristics and a person like this that you know we all we always hear the story you know what he was like the guy Nick's story he was this that and the other thing. It's not something that's easily detectable in somebody especially when there are as good of a con man is HH Holmes ones. Yeah this on this one is not the guy next door this is a man. And who was very elegant incredibly intelligent she had or why it is obviously most illegal. Yet hundreds of mistresses. I'm one of the stories out like that tell guys as. During his trial. When the jury came back and and rendered guilty in the church sentence and death. The newspaper reported about 45. Is women. In the jury in in the audience standing up while he was led ops and shackles. I mean. Despite knowing exactly. What this man had been and was. They love this man. Even though he was this monster. And it and. See it's. It's such a weird thing because you sit there and you of course know love is just it's it's one of those connections but. I may do you think maybe they just didn't believe that this person that they that. And they knew that they were married to could actually be this evil of an individual. No no no not at all some of them even assisted him in his crimes. Com. I gotta tell you admit I don't know much about the character rest although I do know. He had the ability to manipulate. Human beings to where they would. In ways that worked their true character. All the ability yet. He had any 234 men who would help him. Murder dispose of the human remains and then cover his tracks a bit long or it could never tracked him down. Tom there's something to that I haven't been able to. Have been able identify what allows someone to do something like that what another being. But that it needs to be someone smarter than I am bet that pushes this further and maybe finds out because I think it has to do with. The best bits and art history. May be some of the world leaders that we all consider the most horrible there's something there that we need to learn from. It's well now there's there's reports when you when you actually look Kamal and let me know off their shoes that they were sort of early science on with. With your great great grandfather. Homs. With everything from torturing and in killing animals to. Messy oral medicine I know there were reports that he may have been responsible for a death befriended a young age now or any are any of those true. Yeah I think they are. And I think you know my iBook bloodstain is more about my journey guys. Once my grandfather told. Stanley that true and I decided we adamantly. I've got to find out what these things inside me that make it from others. Now you've got some great authors like Larson like Harold Schechter like John browse. Talk about those early stages and Holmes lied about. Murdering children. The animals. Eat in you know how he paid his way through college or university Michigan he's he robbed great news and saw all the cadavers. And then the skeletons. To medical schools around the country I mean he started out early and you just it's all in victory. But that's not uncommon though from back then that was pretty notorious thing for people to. Honestly steel steel bodies from graves and turn them sell them to. To doctors and so forth from medical practice I know I invested investigated much locations and go senators. That had that doctors would actually get a lot of these bodies in the they would buy from graver grave robbers and then they would use for testing purposes. Your your right on the money every bit as much as 2000 dollars for a skeleton. And what happens with that Jason is that. When that a grave robber figures out. That is too much work tracking down a newly. Buried cadaver. Re up digging it up and then sell clean not selling and making their own. They start making Barre home. So it's back let's rewind this a little bit. We know that your book is not a son a biography of HH Holmes it's your personal journey and we're gonna get into more of that part of it but tell us what you know what you researching what you learned about HH Holmes. As an individual. And what you learned about his crimes. Well I gotta tell you what what I think of holes. And your and you guys are right his name is actual name is Hermann Webster much. And he's migrate regret my grandfather grant even liked that name. Like homes that had that Ryan was Sherlock Holmes at that beautiful sound to him. And and that's kind of like how his life was clothes he wore. A luxury it's a luxurious things he. You want to live with TE and to show others action is eagle so they show them what what kind of success he was. What I think a Colmes I I almost think of when when when you go to a legal dictionary. And you come to the work premeditated they should put. Is pictured there because here's a man who realize the murder the world's fair was coming to Chicago. In new move millions of innocent people were going to come which long or could not keep track. He's got a piece of property Eddie junction of the railroads. Where. The one line would come from downtown Chicago. Yet the line would go out so late word that there would be. Eat eat eat committed fraud on the couple that owned the property. Evidently the man disappeared and the woman and the woman was murdered he was Spanish he was the beneficiary up they will they Kagan. No is really ever nailed down exactly how that it. Except it's not that hard for assault to imagine what. And then he built to. In murder Cass lake factory of deaths where people would come. Rent a room. He would enter gas into the room as state associate them either to death or render them unconscious. Is assistance would end of the room send a body down issue. To where it was caught on a Gurney in the basement and you could either torture or experiment. And to his heart's desire and then sell the skeleton it's. It's it's like we discussed earlier it's not something which should happen and America and I think. It's something which finally after a 130 years with the help of History Channel. And with Martin Scorsese and Leonard and Leonardo DiCaprio. We're going to finally sees the story of this horrible monster an Olympic. That murder castle. Was. I believe demolished in 1936 or somewhere around there are so it's not around today to view. But I imagine if it was army would be. And whether this is good or bad I'm not sure but it will be quite a tourist traction because it it's actually something that despite its. Black stain in history it's probably something that would be worth remembering just like in our holocaust museums are what we we need to remember that those things occurred. It might be an interesting. A place to visit if it were still standing there. Jason and you know you when I have something in common on this I want it I've been down in the basement. It it was bought and I urge seven your correct. By the United States post office. Who tore it down and then built it up post office which still stands as 63 and wall single day. I wish I went down in the basement that's three times once with History Channel on our history. And obviously the basement is not saying today is it was and it's it's. It's. It's interesting though lately employees at the post office will not go down in the basement. And it was largely barricaded until week talked. The superintendent. Into allowing curator to take my assistant and I down into the basement where and I write about this. And I'm not a paranormal or I don't believe in spirits I don't believe in the supernatural. But when I went down those stairs in to the same area where that base and at the murder castle. I gotta tell you there were feelings that emerged. Not only from from the area and the building itself but also from heart and soul. Which. I have no doubt that add to do with the torture and agony which at Eckerd. Yeah yeah because of sermon micro stock. Mo do you think of the negativity that. Or just a negative in this that went on there that whether yours your believer in the paranormal or not. I'm Sherry and you can agree that. If they if there's just torture and negativity anywhere that that energy can attached to something UK can attach to an area or. Or whatever it doesn't have to mean that there's a spirit there but. Even even you know knowing what what happened in that area is just enough of a weight on your shoulder to it to get those sensations and sit back in Korea and Richie couldn't imagine the things that those those people were going through. Well exactly and then think about. Polling that that the screenings. And the cries. And and the bloodshed. That was there was caused by the man. Who is responsible. For you being a lock eyes on the yer here since day. And there work it took me two or three years to get over that fact and decide that wait a minute. This this horrible man wasn't my ancestor. My answers there was the troops. And justice for the victims and hadn't been identified yet but yet murdered. And that's that's the journey that I that I myself or. Art or gonna take a quick break here will we come back we're talking and a more about that that journey that specific journey it's just my duties or guest tonight he's an author and attorney is book is called bloodstains. I will be right back. To walk don't walk this fine line between as we've said several times 32 nights you know celebrating the serial killer vs trying to understand it and and were were trying to you know make sure it's clear were on the side of just understanding you're certainly not celebrating. And and I think we've done a great job with and in Jeff is it do it in the same thing and just doing the same thing I mean this is his one of his ancestors but. It's not that he's he's not celebrating it by any means he heats gotten into it trying to understand. And and that's why that's why we've got to Mani he's just he's just agreed individual and general. There's an in no way excitement about while a serial killer to us it's more just trying to understand what takes somebody. And makes them choose that path. Yeah I mean how somebody can do things like this to other people and did seemingly enjoying it and that's the big question here. And again Jeff is our guest he is in author and attorney the book by the way is bloodstains the website is bloodstains the book dot com Jeff again thanks for joining us. We I'm here we get listener calls periodically through here we've got to people are waiting on holes are just wanna take one quick call here. Before we continue with your story this is Robert from California Robert welcome to beyond reality radio you're on with GB Jason and Jeff much. They have not yet. My mother does free up did he get very good do you think you'll. If Clinton. Yeah that's a great question I rated as well he wanted to be encased in cement and buried ten feet deep because so that people wouldn't rob his body areas ports and then dissected whatever happened you know Jeff. Well that's a great question Robert and one thing is that the History Channel agreed to well being with was. One of my. I theories is that homes escaped his ex confusion and it wasn't him buried at that spot ever and then he went on to be a free man and murder and anonymity again. Soul we had down. Lawyers involved we had a judge agreed and what you guys will seat on American ripper is we actually. Boomed. The graves. Were don't hate testing with the University of Pennsylvania in London university. And we're going to determine once and for all there was homes buried in the scraper or not. Well that'll answer your question definitively Robert you won't have any questions after that for sure. And no my question for you do need them is there any future of golf that are returning. Com and we are we are in talks my can't say too much right now but. I gotta be honest with you we start we stick kind of opened the door to the whole genre. And since there's been so many shows that have come and just pretty much copycat in what we did it when we come back I wanted to be different I wanna I wanna change it up a little bit because now everybody's doing what we've done for thirteen years but we are in talks with a bunch of major networks and about about bring ghost on his back and has electorally say at this point. Yes thanks for the call rubber we appreciate you waning on weighing in on the topic let me just say Jeff you're gestures such a kink into this whole story now and now I'm. I'm totally lost witness. Hedo with him being buried and possibly not being him I mean that the changes everything. All of this going to be on national television I can't tell you guys I'm on pins and needles right. For twenty years I've researched. The stories. About. Powell home was allegedly buried. Whether he escaped execution. Or not. And to have great people at History Channel back me up on this and spend the millions of dollars or eat it. I gotta tell you I'm I'm I'm not a very excited this is this is one of those stories where an author says. Listen I know who Jack ripper was it's this and this this and then walks away from. We've actually. Gone. The final model. And we're going to goal yes or no backs. And and crew. One where the other weapons collection the north's true I gotta tell it that's the way. That's the way investigation should be done and said it instead of this state news that there were also used. You know. And I am 100 send JV 100% agrees with you on that that exact comment and it's so nice being able to tune into something that you're going to have some sort of closure and knowledge from at the end. Yet and we're gonna take a quick break here and we come back really gonna get into the nuts and bolts of of the journey that Jeff went through as he discovered. What his family tree showed him and what he was going to personally because it's quite a story involves some paranormal components definitely some soul searching as well. Yeah and every page you turn it just opens up a new can't alarms when you looking through it. But are able yet we're gonna take quick break we come back a lot more take on the number it's 8446877669. Control freak for 46877669. He'll listen and Jason NG beyond beyond really are. It's Thursday on the West Coast Friday in the East Coast when you're stuck between the armory moderator myself to start. It's always Austin TV Johnson who cannot hit the right feed button I do it wasn't the bullet news and I were talking and I'm Michael Mueller got here we don't like to direct hit. She's she's a very I get so lost during very I would just talk about stuff you know audiences than as a random stuff laughing sending pictures to each other you know it's the same old stuff seems story you know it's of it's and this is Cinderella story relic but welcome everybody to beyond reality radio great to have you along were having a great conversation tonight were talking with Jeff smudge it. Who's an author and an attorney his book is called blood stains in the website is bloodstains. The book dot com. And there to continue that conversation just some few minutes or should also talking about his television series is coming up in just couple weeks on the History Channel called American ripper at times. Hugely excited about that yet that's right that that's going to be fantastic we really need to get into that a little more as well. I just remind everybody tomorrow night's program as every Friday night is is a best of program from the week and then. From Monday and Tuesday night's you know. It's a hot fourth of July weekend holiday weekend so we will be read speeding shows from. Earlier broadcasts in the will be back live on Wednesday night with doctor Barbie breath that. She is a healing minister and a dream interpreter we always. Have a lot of fun of the agreement to reporters. And then Thursday were going to be talking in Oakland as McCants the numbers lady with over twenty years of experience studying in neurology. And she's the author of numerous books or and we talked there about that so. Should be fun yet should be should be great records picks up hope everybody has some great plans for the fourth of July weekend its chance to enjoy some time with friends and family fireworks some boos so that's a great combination always. If you haven't yet had over a FaceBook dot com slash beyond reality radio make she'll like the FaceBook page head over to beyond really radio dot com. We can find any degree stations we are on across the country will be actually updating that list with a bunch more in just about a week or so. And or you can download the free and android and iPhone heparin at their from the website. Shall Los Angeles in the show lives on the go listen the past episodes join us during the chattering closer to the website just click the listen live button. And join in the online chat the interaction Chet. So ours so let's take a quick break as we've got a lot -- well with Jeff and I wanting to get him back on seal listen Jason GP yeah. Effectiveness it's going to be a perfectly give myself a. Doesn't get any more perfect match tonight's topic is the story of club while some store is just much it. Who's an author author and attorney found out he was a great great grandson of HH Holmes the notorious. Serial killer considered actually America's first suitor serial killer the book's called bloodstains and the website is bloodstains the book dot com. And for everybody out there HH Holmes whose real name was permanent Webster much so I know get a little confusing Byron as we heard earlier from Jeff he had. And lists. Analysts. Identities so yeah he changes named opening number he was living a lot of times to elude capture for. Not cons and other. Crimes he committed in meanwhile Bob May be on the things he was doing to people which was basically torturing and murdering but Jeff welcome back to the program. Again thanks for joining us tonight and at let's let's start talking about you know what you went through as you it learned. About your family tree and then he came to terms with it he knew it was it was quite a transformation in you was well. You know it was it was quite a journey ended in number of years I was is expects successful practicing lawyers in California. And the officers San Francisco did all the right things. And then when my grandfather late this bombshell. And I realized that. Everything that I had thought my life had been built on any foundation whatsoever. Had been a fraud. Tom it pretty much tore me apart. And rather than just continue on to some as my other family members did. I needed to look deeper into it and and that's when I decide it way to. These stories. These alleged in these lower about this are. This killer. They just didn't make sense the newspaper articles. Didn't add up. And I needed I needed a coach K yeah. A magnifying glass on the and then when I did IQ is accurately mentioned. Every time you turned that page about this guy another. Issue crops. Will reach. Only leads you further down the rabbit hole. Well and what Jeff why do you think your grandfather felt the need to fill you in on. On you're your ancestors. You know all that's a wonderful question and my grandmother. She believed that we were all related to the general Robert. And didn't need that middle name middle name Lee. And back in those days in order to find it genealogy has been quite a bit of money. And she should the money and the the experts came back to were after a period Imus at you know Tom. It's better to let this sleeping dog. This isn't property leave this is today. And they did it this is they horse thief in Arkansas. Well my brother was of the inquisitive mind that he was. Decided not that an accent so he went did some research program found out. It come to beat this killer in Chicago went so went one night at dinner. My brother was discussing his findings to spam. My grandfather that as I already mentioned this quiet stoic men. Jumped up from the table slammed his chair back in obtaining clean Moeller said. That name permanent will never be mentioned in this house gay and stormed out of room. While looking directly at me. And that you can imagine that that that that was something that needed to be delve further into and when I did. It it never stopped. Carries but in other words your grandfather really didn't want you'll to dig into here your family tree he was hoping that. While if you guys did you you'd sort of get lost and you would you wouldn't find this connection but when you started to it sort of infuriated him. Oh yeah I'm back on those days pretty wide five creek Google you can get away with the secretive stuff I mean I've Stanley guys. During that trial of a permanent. They all moved out west from New Hampshire to California. And they got away from because you know this was the OJ Simpson trial every newspaper in America had a reporter their trial. So in the west and they got a and the and it got away with for awhile but then it kind of caught up and Powell. With shows like yours my book and now movies by Scorsese. And and and series by the history. Well we're gonna gonna start finding out the truth about HH Holmes. When. Your family was wrestling with this and you were personally just. Did you start yet I got the impression from some of the things you said that you started to feel some things and side if you stirring that you were kind of concerned with as well. Yeah there's not there's no doubt about that and I and I try to write about that in the book it's not an easy subject to cover. I don't know to be easy for anywhere Shakespeare's. Richard. But I I knew I was different guys. I was in the murder I was in a serial killer wasn't evil. But I had ox which always puzzled me. From when I was a little boy growing up throughout the lessons and it into our journey. Ending. They've bothered and I knew there was something there hold them to a key. What they war and win my grandfather dropped. On. It all came home to roost and quite frankly it wasn't something I can just look the other way I knew I needed to find out more about it and I try to covered that in the right. I want I explain you guys what bloodstains about this it's not about how many windows or. How many people own murder which somebody the books argue back and work. This is this is about me. Understanding. That this horrible man. You know is why am alive today and I'm hoping. The better understanding. Can be passed on like we discussed earlier and as you. Describe it. This is something to celebrate this is something to understand so that we can curb and it. Yes so I guess some of the the worry then I guess when you were looking into this was. Because ever when you look at HH Holmes of course you think of just evil. You think it just you know negativity and inside somebody. So I guess a concern that you would have had was could that have been genetically passed down through it to the rest of the family. Precisely. And that the phrase the phrases that you guys have heard many Garnett chipped up real block. And one and in order to be honest all of us. With a drink at the bar we can all admit certain thoughts which weren't sure. And now hold those thoughts that I had had. Don't have a basis they had a reason and they needed to be spelled out to. Formally from Peter to rest easy the rest of my life and then that's what I tried to do and I got to tell you writing the book. Working with history. Being able to display some of the troops that I found about this man. And to a display sum up the fraud and a continent and the actual lives that some of the articles that wrote about. You know portray him as I've got to tell you I'm feeling much better. In the and that. Such as he does when you really you look in HH Holmes there's a lot of information out there and some of it's true some of it's not. So it's been very tainted throughout the years late and one of the sayings. From playing there is there's a thing of something that he had said at one point I'm not even sure if it was true but it said. I was born with a double in me I could not help the fact that that was a murderer no more than the public can help the inspiration to sang. I was born with the evil one standing as my sponsor beside the bed where I was ushered into the world. And he has been with me cents now is that actually a quote that he did say. You know that's it that's out that's an eight. By many of the authors edit written about all I tend to think it's true when you read if you get a chance guys. Read his memoirs that he wrote while he was in prison he was actually paid quite a bit of money by the Hearst Corp. Two. Right concessions for that which they put out all major newspapers the ulcer wrote a book of his memoirs which history. Come help me go to The Library of Congress or we see the original. When you when you read that book you describe some of his murders. Is probably. The I hate to use the word greatest but the most discrete views. An example. Of a killer talking about. For that humankind. Has ever seen and it's largely be and Tom I gotta tell you if you walk. See the mind of the killer read homes as memoirs. Animal animal scare period of I don't know we it's it's just disturbing amended to probably endorse anything Steven king could come up with. I'm a what do we're gonna run at a time here and in their minutes we have left before our bottom of the hour break I wanna pick up on the television series a little bit the American ripper in this History Channel effort. That you were involvement. Now you talk but it zooming the body of whoever was in HH Holmes is grave and I'm assuming there's going to be some peace and you can hear he'd hear attempted to definitively determine whether or not it's his body in there. Where you used was he your urgent agenda genetics at the that are going to be used to for the comparison. And you mailed out and it's it's my DNA that's going to be compared with the DNA taken from the cadaver yes. Interesting and I don't know if you know news the answer or not yet but this is tell us about. The format of American ripper is it is it a season long thing is to visit to visit a couple of episodes how's this gonna work. Now it's it's 88 episodes we airing July 11. And history has been incredible producing this. And and what they did is they ate they noticed me giving my Ted talk. Where I discussed that my theory was. That Holmes was also Jack the Ripper and I've brought up by evidence. To the audience award and it is my grand jury. Presented that evidence and asked them to vote yes or no want it. We got over 77%. That voted yes from the evidence that whole jacked her what history shot that they contacted me and say. We want to go with you on your journey. We wanna Bakke well we wanna provide the latest forensic technology. And techniques. To see if that theory. Holds water and I gotta tell you that things are we discovered about Holmes. How he was in London are gonna Shockey guys. How long were you investigating filming researching for this project. We've got a comedy here on the adjacent. You know what that does your life when you have a production or branded TV series one rich Elliott say this has got to change your life well it really did. Oh yeah nine. Trust me thirteen years and and that it becomes crazy but it but it gets the point where I'm sure you dull as well. Where you get so used to cameras always being there that you forget they're there and you just go about your your routine. I'm glad you brought it up because I gotta tell you when I first started. The cameras were like a damn laser on me at first they were burning my skin when we finished Jason. I can walk down the street with four cameras around and I didn't even know they were there. Yeah I've yeah I didn't know exactly what you mean and I've done it I've been walking through the streets of New Orleans have had three camera guys walking around me and I just and they just stay out of my way but they're recording from all directions so. And it's such it's so funny because a lot of people don't realize that when it comes down to TV how. In extra suing you filming a reality show you just forget the camera sit there and you start living your life like you normally do and they just roll. Exactly so that starts July 11 and is suited to a weekly thing freed episodes do you know how they're gonna air it. Yeah. Every week trade episodes. Already considering a second season so we'll see how it does and Jason you know how that works if it does well well well. Saturday. Now I think it's gonna duels and I'm certainly not gonna ask you for the conclusion but after the break we're gonna talk about this Jack the Ripper connection but as far as the series go to succumb to of fairly definitive answer at the end of these 88 episodes. Hate to do this team schedule my friends over at him and I figured we gonna set it will be nice save there are those illegally and you really can't those do much with. And you being a lawyer I'm sure we'll you know that saw. And an NBA is million. So this is a non disclosures gotta love beyond OK so listen we don't have enough time to really get into the Jack the Ripper thing here but we're gonna talk about on the other side of the break and I also wanna talk about the fact that I think I saw a quote from you Jeff at some point where. He confessed to 27 victims but do you believe the numbers more like in the hundreds. Yes it's more than 27 it's. When you went Holmes will start. Bragging within his eagle looks are rolling he was a pathological. Liar and any thing he said you had to take salt. Why and I know that there has been reports in certain areas of upwards of 200 but we'll get into a lot of that we come back. If you haven't yet head over to FaceBook dot com slash beyond reality radio make Sheila the FaceBook page then had to be on reality radio dot com. You can download the free iPhone and android app. Which allows you to listen the show alive catch a pass episodes and also join the online chat during a light show if you download the show from iTunes. There was a favored jittery it for us it helps push it forward and I was being downloaded thousands and thousands of times they would greatly appreciate the support pretty quick break when we come back a lot. More you listen Jason did. Game scary time might be over for this year but there's another scary kind in the works you owe it to yourself to check out the details notice Derek Carr and dot com that's Garrett con. Dot com to sign up for the email list and be informed you need to know what's going on with scary con because it's the best weekend of the year scare coming clean celebrities fans. Vendors parties panel discussions film premieres and so much more it's a weekend you'll never forget it everyone is welcome to. Visit the website scary time dot com that spirit con dot com. Coming close to the close your listeners each of us this one's going to yet sometimes they just speed right along that's one that's where we're doing tonight. Again a quick reminder tomorrow night's best of program from the week one of the good shows from the weekly play tomorrow night done all the stations in the who unarmed and our family. And then Monday Tuesday holidays. For us they will be best of from deeper in the dark era archives and would go back go live Wednesday night. Yeah we have some great shows next week's just makes you tune in and the list of the guests will be up on the beyond reality radio Satan the next bear sows check out and tonight we're talking about some Jeff mudge its journey when he discovered his great great grandfather was HH Holmes. The notorious serial killer considered America's first serial killer. His book is called blood stains. And the website is bloodstains the book dot com. The I television series which will premiere on History Channel on July 11 has called American ripper in Jeff again knowing you know. We knew it was gonna go quickly tonight but really realize that it would go this quickly and we are getting close to running out of time we saw a lot of things talk about. You know I've got to tell you I looked at the the clock myself and it went by before we get onto I tell you Jason if you decide to go back in the ghost honors. Promise. That one show you'll go back into that basement at six at third Waltz or murder Cassel was. And do a show from Merrill where History Channel once stated. If ever the paranormal is going to be crew and it would be there. Our via the promised meet Jeff the Yugo listening. Absolutely. Aaron Aaron soul set something up that we've got a little looks forward to here. Jeff tell us about the connection would Jack the Ripper you I mean this this series talks about this. And clearly you're American can reveal any of the conclusions but to what are some of the things that point to the connection. You know there's a there's I'm my own bit circumstantial. Evidence and quite frankly when I began writing the book it wasn't even an issue with me. I had some some some friends contact me about a man in Pennsylvania. Studied this for decades. I got in contact with him we we discuss back and pork quite frankly. I had the same negative response that most people do when they first hear it. But having practiced law before I knew that you had to keep an open mind to rap about issues like this. And once the evidence started piling up on it. I started changing my mind and then. When the people that Ted let me give a presentation in band cool for. Regarding. Homes being jacked through the actually at least mean yeah. Swear in the thousands in the audience they gave them that they let me swerve and it is my grand jury presented my evidence on screen behind me and then we both did. After words and I got a 77%. Guilty. Smoked some that audience. I knew we had some. And win the people that history saw that Ted talk. They contact me and then it was you know it was from there there were onto TV series. Well look what kind of things wall kind of evidence do you have that supports him being Jack the Ripper. The guys that any if you Demi Moore or you know the letters Goodyear lost saucy Jack. Around where he describes the double event coming up and remove years from nick well we actually ran those letters. Buys some time handwriting experts even computers. And it was remarkable that we came back with similar findings. And then we started going into hole had been made. On trips to London having having Scotland Yard and the London paper is believing that it was an American Doctor Who committed to her. I'm just kept piling up band. I think you're going to see. What history gave me was a co host who has a CIA operative who is trained in the latest brands it techniques. She I kid about our callers Ellie aren't set that history doesn't let me color. Show but as. Some X-Files and I'm the one that goes out on the edge and she's the one that brings the middle. Always with the latest scientific techniques and we use at 31 there is now. To test my theory whether all this Jack recur and I think you're going to be amazed. Were you able to see his his trips Cohen said to to England coincided with when the murders were happening. Without a doubt absolutely. Aryan it's one dollar path that Aaron. Yeah. So this particular eight episodes is it entirely dedicated to making the case for. Homes being checked corporate. You know that's what the show is about. But as we tell the story it becomes more and more about olds because so much about Holmes had to do with whether he was Jack rip or not. And I got to tell you when when mutually don't watch series. And how the creative genius is that the gala entertainment history this together. Our. I gotta tell you I was watching some of the re creations today. And I'm amazed. At Howell. It was Ellis put together all the evidence is added it's almost as if were at trial and were presenting it to a jury. And I think we're gonna change history. Well I think that's important as so and a lot of times especially the stain cage Tom when I started doing a reality it was it was a different. It was different world I I went through all my shows I signed off on them to. To air because I wanted them to be in and be real bottom line and a most most people don't have that ability but. You've been happy with all the as a way productions. Go on the old movies the way it's all portrayed the way it's it's being brought to light. That's that's a tough question now as you know it's my author friends told me Monday started. Sure turning a book. Eat it too late television series series or movie. Is it is a difficult process because I got to tell you what I first start I'm writing a book was harder. How wide hole television series much harder than writing. It they're forced to strip. That whole thing ended this. You know the finite amount of trying where I can just write a page. And and I gotta tell you I've I've admired watching a process that's gone on. Well and in javy can attest to that is well it's it's tough especially like with me I'll go to a place I'll be there for two weeks. But he gets edited down to 43 minutes. So sorry I totally understand it was a what you're saying I can I can right of but I didn't to detail and everything else but they have to edit things down to fit within. Within a certain timeframe because the commercials and so forth and it does take away a lot of what you really wanna see there. You know I'm there's no doubt then I'm night there's times when I would I would raise objections or suggestions. And they you know they considered at all but they have a lot of politics to deal and they have a lot of you know. This network has to have its say the production company has to have its say the advertisers have to have their say it's a tough process. Let's talk about the homes currency mentioned that what does it. Hold scourge is probably the most fascinating aspect of the entire story. Tom Larson writes about it and Evelyn my city. Win. Almost was allegedly executed guys. Anyone. That was associated with his arrest. Is incarceration. His trial and execution. Was either murder suffered a terrible misfortune we're talking about 3048. We're talking about the jury in the prosecutor. We're talking about all those people associated. With anything that would have made him angry during this process one of the newspapers even talks about. Watching all. While the jury is is disgusting. You know history in writing down names on a piece of paper. And that fascinated me that was one of the earliest aspects of why I wanted to look into these strange stories. Of why his aerial didn't make any sense why his execution. Was sick she why every newspaper article there was. Wrote it different story about those two. Aspects which should have been. Been able to be carried by the major newspapers in America. You don't. And black and white there's really nothing to manage being taken up to a scaffold. I will put around his neck Jim hang and it. Including go up my inbox led off to look burial and then covered up their right. And that's not delay it was so the first we got into this story the more it looked liked. Another homes conspiracy. And I think. If you guys tuning in you're gonna see. We got to the bottom up we re we really did and right now. As I said I'm on pins and needles awaiting the results of the DNA testing. So but all but during the trial he was pretty much I guess she easiest way to say it is like writing a hit list taking down names and and you know considering who who was gonna pay the price. That's exactly what I think he was doing now none of the newspaper articles mentioned it is but they did benching him writing it lists of names down now none of them more able to a local shoulder and see what the name or no one ever got that list. But are about the opinion that that's what it was. Or let's let's go to the phone lines here we've got this is Joseph from Indiana joining us Joseph welcome to be on reality radio. Ought digital conversion. I request for. About all of them. What. At 830 what it only. Them the good guy. You mean the Sam ways Joey dug a camera lightens. Like edit that would. That Arafat out but it. Yeah I disagree question Jeff some might I'm assuming that says since we don't know all the victims are that's probably tough order but what do you think. No that's one of my greatest purposes. In my life now and I got to tell you when I go to new book signings. Periodically have people come up in a nominee shake my hand and I feel kind of funny about it to tell you the truth. But they'll say you know. Not my ancestor. I believe was one of the victims a great great grandfather. And while we don't poll that asks you any knowledge you can give us regarding. That murder. We want excavate the grounds that the murder castle see if we can uncover. Aren't human remains induce and DNA testing on that because. Quite frankly guys Tom I think one of the greatest crimes of this whole story is that. When the federal government bought that property bought the murder castle and tore it down and built the post office over the top. They knew what had happened there they knew that burgers had occurred being knew there were possible human remains. And they just covered it over and I think that's crank. What Jeff let me ask you this and this is a tough question arm do you feel. Any. Any guilt or have you been able to get past that because of this being your your ancestor and things here he he did. Yeah yeah I do and it's not edit choice on the matter was and that's it exactly and that's why I say it's it's one of those things where even if you do. You and I both know you need to push past that because there's nothing you can do it people are going to make their own decisions and is that it is what it is but. Gone you know here's. God and I agree with you 100%. I gotta tell you know I've never had someone come out and call me a name. Because of polls at any of the shows I do. I am most come up and say they admired my courage that in runaways are met and I'm willing to tell the world the story. And you know and I always buttress that with the fact that hey guys. I want to tell this story so that maybe we understand there. Why it happened and we couldn't. We can predict when that might happen again and stop and and I know that's that's the way out there I know that is that is. That's why restrictions that may be but I know that it still in the future the way colleges building on a so much in our lives these days. There's a possibility that those things are possible future he Joseph did we do we injured questions the. Got out of it well one more little what if you don't aren't sure. There are but it is a LL. Not. Give up on her. So rampant that help them recognize. That they're better and we all what. Help the upper berth or are out there. That up by. I don't you're not. A part off Bobbitt. Yeah well about the court. Yeah maybe you know maybe just like some venom monument memorial or something to maybe something like that are just terrorists closure now. As you know that's a great point and I gotta tell you. I asked the federal government if I could with my own money to bronze monument on. On the grounds at the murder Cassel not celebrating homes but the victims you know and and guys they refused. My hunch is now. I don't know we all have a few minutes left here and I didn't want it bring one more point. When you looked at the life of homes and you learn more more about this man did did you see anybody else in history from that point forward that you would compare him to that was kind of the same kind evils same kind of person. You act how I know where you're going and it. It's it's a different and I don't know how to come pared those types of evils I mean this is a man who could. To evil and music with his own senators. Murdering. Torturing dismembering. Human beings. The ones the ones that think you're trying to get out of the ones that ordered soldiers to do things. Com I think there's a difference are not an expert at that. Maybe you guys could help me with that subject. I tend to think that this man who could take a young woman down and have basements. And here first name while he removed an organ was the worst. Oh absolutely doing that with that are their own hands set of working and working through others it's it's a total different type of individual. Suggest I agree. Jeff the live television series begins airing July 11 he said there's talk of a second season. What other projects do you have on your hit list of things to do. As follow ups to this. Act thanks a lot. Others attending major motion picture with my book there's and he lives Broadway play. We're Holmes will go on stage and talk to the audience about his antics which I gotta tell you I if that's done right it could just be. It it would be you're shattering Tammy. And I've got a second but I'm working on has nothing to do all you know one of the things about writing. You guys know what platform is I haven't plot underwrite and because of my ancestor. Us. And well people say they like my writing I wanted to try to do something which has nothing to do with almost asleep. If I had the ability to write whatsoever so I've got to I've got to detective story coming out which I'm gonna put out after the US series is over so I'll let you guys know about that when a publisher. That's awesome thanks so much common hang analyst Jeff and we definitely we gotta talk again when the when the show's airing and and get you back on the talk about some of the episodes. Thanks guys and Jason keep your. Let's let's go down and let basement together all right sounds doable figure it out so awesome have a great night we'll talk again soon. Okay so our guest is Bengie how much did his book is bloodstains the website is bloodstains the book dot com we're gonna take a break. Whom we come back we'll wrap things up it's beyond me. Decency. I'm really really great city. Fastening jet streak. Makes. See this series it's on History Channel starting the eleventh. Yeah I'm I'm really excited about seeing this show and it just it just a wonderful guy great big shout out to him from an ongoing analysis and talking about it me she checked out. American ripper it July 11 so. If you having ahead over FaceBook dot com slash beyond reality radio like FaceBook page and then head to beyond reality radio dot com. Grab the free iPhone in injury it. And tomorrow night's going to be a best of Irish for like every Friday. We are taking Monday and Tuesday off for the fourth of July in the more back of all new shelves and a great stuff starting Wednesday night again and manages to be good chose to do some good things are going to be replayed. Yeah we appreciate the support the show is a success all because if you. And we know it yourself. Very elicited Jason GV everybody have a safe and enjoyable 4 July we'll catch all next hour. And ingredients produced by state 88 includes things like Alexandria Johnson and her. Carrara don't forget to stop by our FaceBook page give us a lie and say hello it's beyond reality read you all want were. If you've got information you want us to follow upon where you might be Gaston beyond reality radio in emails to sleep getting nets slick Eddie ED DY at beyond reality radio dot com thanks for listening.