Dec 6, 2012|
Tommy speaks with Dwayne Sherman, Retired New Orleans Police Lieutenant, about his part in the Glover case.
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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
Hi Tommy tiger continuing coverage of blood Jim Clinton's resignation. And boy -- give us here -- is it is gonna put you on the inside of the US attorney's office. Why this anonymous posting to web sites that you should be concerned with and and how it affected one man's life -- to put a face on and forty this hour's -- -- by -- revised. Resort and casino. And I want to hear what Jim wouldn't have to say earlier in case you missed it. Make no mistake about it. I stand here before you. The members of the press corps and the citizens we serve. And all are great partners out here I see so many if you -- -- With the enormous. Unabashed pride. Then everything we've accomplished. And in the tremendous successes we've forged. Over these years. New Orleans this city. Region this state. -- all places. Oh -- which all of our citizens. All of our citizens. Can be truly proud and prouder every single day because of the ground we've covered. Because of the victories were forged. Because of the culture we together have changed and we cannot and will not. What backward and go -- so we have to continue to go forward. Either it's Jim -- he's gonna remain until December 11 and then he'll hang around. It's an album out with the transition and just so you know with the Justice Department in Washington apparently not so much faith not so much pride in the US attorney's office here. Because they were appointed to people from outside of the region to serve as. I interim US attorneys one guy Dana boy and tape comes from Virginia the other guy John Horn comes from. Georgia joining us now former new loans police officer -- Sherman thank you doing for coming in. I can tell on such short notice come yeah I I wanna -- to tell Liz and in his narrative form as we can and as chronological. Quarter as we can but I might take some side roads here is as I have questions and and I want to talk about the US attorney's office. In light of what you were charged with and ultimately acquitted of -- their methods their processes and how it affected your life for king -- -- let's go back to it Katrina. And who what they charged you with. And what it what happened is as it relates to Henry Glover so. The state didn't charge you because I believe the statute of limitations. Ran out and then it's at this point that MO telling Henry Glover storyline of the charges I think there might be the best way to do it so. The US attorney's office designs at some point to charge you with what. They indicted me in June of 22 and four. Basically put it up in an ordinary terms for beating can't they can't -- prisoner. For violate the constitutional rights of -- William -- -- believe that we king. Henry Glover and his family by burning a call with the body and taken away their right to things like redress followed the free use of his property as follows mr. tandem. And also the fifth count was obstruction of justice tonight. What did you do after Katrina. As it relates to Henry Glover and his body or the other people you -- those names again Henry tanner. Dug -- the driver of the call that brought the body to listen to swat team -- school haven school was William -- William tanner aren't. The other people on the call was Edward King. Who is the brother. Of the deceased OK and Benoit Callaway who was described to me is the brother in law. Of and we king and and Paul Henri Claude -- Callaway correct tell me what you did. That day -- those days -- -- as a relates to the incident itself how was he assisting commanded the swat team was lieutenant. In rouge had taken over haven school I noticed haven school was unoccupied shortly after the storm because on what to check on my own residence which is about two blocks away. When I noticed it was unoccupied we moved into it because we were sleeping in a parking garage in the central business district. In fact -- Our restroom consisted of the parking lot. So this gave us an opportunity they had -- and more of do you have electricity but he gave us a base took took. Continuing operations to protect the city is best we could. So William tanner pulls up these guys Henry Glover in the car along with Edward king and there aren't going what a lot of people don't understand Tommy is it it's not as simple as -- -- common looking for help that is not true. It what takes place is too much -- -- on the swat team or at the stop sign at Mercedes and McAuliffe. Wait for the rest of their personnel to get ready to go on the street. When they noticed a call coming up astronomical off in the direction towards the brits on westbound direction. They attempted to stop the Cohen a call let them on the chased around haven school eventually stop in front of haven school. That that Thomas saw just looked in the back of the car and they noticed that there was Henry Glover on a backseat to the call and was how's he was deceased. It was I -- very shortly after that that I came out to school. I viewed. Henry Glover are partially rolled him over to check for any signs of life in fact he was deceased. Well from that point since my commander who's captain Jeff when was on the street at the command post and Harris casino. At that point I took -- radioed headquarters and advised headquarters that I had a deceased. Person. It was I'll -- based on what I could see -- probably homicide. And I asked for help in dealing with this problem that we had with this this. Homicide. -- or -- at that point advised me that no help was common I knew we didn't have a coroner's office in -- bodies lay in all over the place. So at that point -- getting no help I radioed captain wind just inform him what we head. Home a shot Tom wade and I don't. I have erection and recollection 14. District Saudi common old -- and that was solid and -- Simmons who eventually became a -- Pitched to stall witness for the prosecution. She advised she had apparently unknown male from the trial. She had just come from the scene of the shooting at strip -- substation. And when she asked me what -- I have and -- me and me in Saudi Simmons would Colin -- we go back a long way we know each other. And I told them exactly what we have which is what the brother and brother in law of the deceased was telling us and that was Henry global -- shot. In an apartment on garden -- drop. And it had something to do over a woman. And that's why I really just to headquarters in a -- and I did think and it was a citizen on citizen murder. -- need -- Simmons number and she she is no -- indicated that she ever told me anything and she didn't read as it relates to. The incident on garden -- -- She never fills me and I eventually talked to captain went. He comes back on north from the testimony that other -- came to the school I don't have a recollection of that is not saying it's not possible -- just don't recall it. And eventually the fourth district who. Under normal circumstances would have investigated this but again we were told not to do any investigations. They eventually left and I consult with captain went on I need to. Do something with the body could you couldn't leave it to school because we had you know 5060 personnel Livan and a body was how's he gonna start to decay. So at that point the decision was made to move to. A relatively who we thought was a safe area away from the population is people would start coming back. In an area that as just what we thought was a citizen on citizen homicide would be -- eventually investigated. They can have access to -- And I was on -- that was on a Levy if and I know you from algae as you're familiar they -- some type of shipping company all launch company. Whereas a road that goes over to Levy it's near general Collins in Paterson. And the call was brought there and talked and it's almost directly by Honda Border Patrol the United States Border Patrol office. I do so from there how does that car get burned the body inside. I agree to to follow also McRae. To the -- just for the purposes of bringing him back to the school after we dropped the caller off. When -- pull up on a Levy. Also McRae was in the process of thrown flare into the car. He later stated that he was tired of seeing bodies burned it was quite obvious to me in as well as a lot of people who was suffering from the effects of Katrina. And he recounted later on and in court on when he took the stand and testified. On what caused team these. These. Problems I guess -- his -- -- deal -- bodies at that point because of what it's seen what they've had what he had to deal with. So when a body was actually burned you know a lot of people won't understand -- a -- not familiar with algae as. We -- turned around on -- Levy went the other way nobody -- source we could've won a general columns in -- likelihood of anybody seen this would have been probably. Very slim but we intentionally drove towards the fourth district station. The other thing most on Richland on Richmond thirteen 48 rich went to Tom. What do you and also we controlled then that's when I advised another ranking also what do taken place in you know. Of course it goes into another story about what that rank and also failed to do. But another thing most people don't understand they -- media accounts make you believe that this happened. Directly across from the Border Patrol and -- 121. Testimonies it suggested also McCray came across to Levy brawny. And laugh and when in fact we measure that was a 120 yawns away from the Border Patrol station. We can run anywhere -- never took place you know it's a very sad incident all the way around but it's not what it was painted to be. I don't take a break here is one comeback don't wanna talk about what happens after you get to. In the world when did your interaction begins really with the US attorney's office after you were indicted or before. I refuse to talk to we began to get wind that something was going on -- many nautical came out in the nation online magazine and that was December of 2008. Okay -- general or not. I so -- your views -- talk to him and you were indicted and then from there you really began with the interaction with the US attorney's office the well they had offered to bring us and let us talk to whom but again I refused to talk I -- my office will they get there we come back right after. I guess lieutenant ways of the former lieutenant almost retired lieutenant who retired lieutenant Doug Wayne Sherman -- and get the facts out with. I Henry Glover were not here revisit that it's more about the process is of the US attorney's office here Jim wasn't when we began this play out the sound bite of his. Retirement today saying he was. Very proud. What it was that he accomplished while he was an office and I guess will here. Lieutenant German story you can decide for yourself when they conducted themselves in a private matter not Tommy Tucker. Back in a flash and make 8787 W. Judge Engelhard -- that they've been -- their verdicts were about the US attorney's office using wires lying to convict liars. The live for an old -- NO PD lieutenant Dwayne Germans are again as he was acquitted. Charges in the Henry Glover case and he's here to talk about the processes. And what it's like to deal with the US attorney's office Jim wasn't resigned today said he was very proud of what happened. We're trying to what you know what it's like to deal with the US attorney's office and come. He was a direct victim of blows some of the things that -- Jim went and down the -- said it was his decision he was. And the target of some of -- man's anonymous posting we'll get to that in a minute. -- -- When he did when he came to you being nine indicted by the US attorney let's let's dig it up here -- Dwayne you're you're indicted they they call you and I guess silicon for deal right. They'd they'd ever said they were looking for a deal with me personally did they what were they looking for because now you feel as though you've done nothing wrong correct you know you did nothing wrong. So you certainly no way and I don't let me ask you you feel like a whole federal government's against you at any point where were you. Looking to get out of this with a slap on the wrist even though you didn't do anything wrong because you didn't wanna have your resources exhausted or what what's your minds out this. It mark my. Perspective that Tom was a look at some extremely stressful. Event for anybody who's going through it because you -- reality you know conviction rate of the US attorney's office you know at a pretty much once they say. It's an indictment most of the citizens are gonna agree with the men and that with the evidence it is a presumption is is a government they can -- wrong correct and so and -- position was. Is a I'm gonna invoke my Fifth Amendment privilege -- not -- home I don't have to as a US citizen. It's not that I was hiding anything I just knew that they -- looking for the truth they had an agenda and comic prove me right. You don't even my wife had begged me initially want to go talk to home and explain tone when it happened and certainly. You know they would clear me and I I had to explain to put it this is not the way it works. That this is the real world this is how they operate. It can you conceive -- that today in a lot of cases. When they'll all get -- whilst a certain men who want to claim their innocent. And eventually leads to that person pleading guilty is spanned a wide from going through troubled. Now at this point. -- police officer -- been around long time work and -- with. Street unit. But you've gone up against what's supposed to be a fellow law enforcement agency. Are you terrified at this point or not. Not terrified -- policies scared but scared wasn't as much for me personally. I mean that over the years have been a lot of dangerous situations and you learn to control your emotions as a Comsat. When I was scared for was cut at the top for five years I had one of my grandchildren -- grandson lived in with me. And I was dealing wedding day to day I was the only man and his life at some scanned every day warn about if something goes terribly wrong. Was gonna take care and making meaning if you get sent away and correct OK can I have my wife I'm used to doing. The normal man stuff they are among the -- old school type person. Certain things a man does around -- house and all that that's my job and you -- wondered who's gonna be here -- some you know. All the little things that most mangled through life -- when every day when I'm given a second thought. You start wondering. It was gonna take care my family. So you tell you why this is the real world meaning you know on the US attorney's office operate their look and to steam roll whatever gets in their way and they're looking for a conviction and then they've already made up their mind and essence. Yes and I think if you talk to any honest attorney. Gone they won't tell you that it's not about the truth it's not about justice. It's a volley win at all cost mentality and unfortunately that's pushed the system we are in right now. So you're terrified of of your grandson being on his own. You know what you're up against what is it that decided zip tie in -- you do invoke your fifth amendment rights in the end your strategy at this point is what. Well Australia's not to talk to because if you look at the other thing with the Department of Justice every police officer at that went in and talk to on. To try and explain. What -- Policy and in my case to -- the case was every one of them got charge additionally with lying to the FBI. They are -- if you stable point Jew and you went and tried to explain even gave reasonable rational explanations for things. You still got indicted he just now -- an extra charge. And now you got to sit from a majority if you take the stand and say. -- charge through a lion but take my word for so it's it's it's set up for you to lose. So we're gonna pick this up here after the news you decide to invoke your fifth amendment rights and then what they say -- we're going to trial and then you sit down. With your attorney and plot a strategy. They date they offer for me to comment and talk I refuse to I told them that there's only two ways that they gonna hear what I have to say in that is either a immunity which I didn't ask for. All between indict me and they chose to indictment. So you get disappoint you sit down with your attorney you prepared trial lead talk about. Strategies and and at some point have resume your attorney heads. Say -- you know. Did you DN at least wanna go talk to normal or was he backing a 100% -- casinos the record as well the the Justice Department ranked. Correct and I was plus what a great attorney out of Fort Worth, Texas. Jeff Kerney and he knows the reality works in the federal system in Texas a lot as a defense attorney. And you know we were realistic what each other but I was also adamant. That I was not pleading guilty I would never apologized to -- my didn't do and I was not on -- walk myself and any jail for somebody who do. -- chance -- has sold. -- constantly defend yourself well I guess for me a fortunate thing was I was pretty much broke to begin with -- The all it -- elder saying in Venezuela Peter you're broke and and I was fortunate in that the police organizations would have support me a lot of police France -- -- it would have cost all for -- attorney I had. I continued to of the of the accuse spent in addition to what the police association an apple. 100000 dollars each. While also goes -- house -- 1230 time for -- WL first news. We'll take it appear when we come back and wanna pick it up. At the trial what's gone through your mind what do you think of the processes used by the US attorney in and -- was. Was justice is meted out or was an intimidation indeed you feel as though you're in the United States or not will pick it up there with Wayne Sherman when we come back I want to make the most of this. Time that we have with -- Wayne Sherman who actually thought the federal government and won an end to -- I'll pick it up right here what. It would kind of percentages. Or odds do you think -- you you're in what kind of rarefied -- today actually do that not many people do do they. Now not many at all especially when you went -- not gonna you know talk to my wife about this before going into the trial. They intentionally and I Chu won as many charges as they can because there may be compromised verdict all they figured they gonna get -- at least something. To walk away I -- -- -- -- five count federal indictment and was acquitted on all five counts which is. It's extremely -- I can only you know. Thank god that the jurors listened to the truth then came the decision they did. Because I mean it you you're up against the Powell and the money of the United States federal government. And you mentioned. Not -- invoking her fifth amendments were amendment rights. And it and find outside right now -- go go out and rob a almost say to myself by -- times everything column anymore at a convenience store. And they arrest me a police officer -- and their right to remain silent the Miranda warnings we've seen on TV a bunch of times but. You declined to talk to a grand jury or you did. No I've I've told them through my attorney L was not speaking to anybody would not speak the FBI and would not speak to the Department of Justice the assistant US attorneys. -- and wonder reason was is because a couple like to stay up with the law and a media. But if you didn't know this you would have been under tremendous disadvantage absolutely and tell tell me about that whole process and how old. A lot of it has so many people if they don't know that they would need enhance. That they'll become in the regular the same. It protection that a guy that holds up a time saver went there and don't let it holds up a convenience store work. Correct because you don't most people. Go throughout gold -- daily activities and never have to experience anything probably worst in traffic ticket. But when you get into these positions. In in you have. Whether it's a state a -- the United States government accusing you of something. And you don't have the experience I say I did in law enforcement. You think if you expression of Uranus and you can go and and say the truth. And that my god the police thought of US attorneys are good people as they recognize that's what you think -- but. A lot of times either intentionally. All just because they make up them on before they get all the facts they -- talk that you. And things that you say innocently. May come back to haunt you later on in a reason I invoke my Fifth Amendment privilege. And so early was believe it or not Jim Brandt. Go back to Jim Brown turns commissioner correct in and the fact that he is is always maintained his innocence. The FBI takes notes they won't allow your record -- In fact if you pull out a tape recorder when you're being interviewed by an FBI agent -- -- in notepad and a walk away. But this is the same department of justice and FBI. That says that the new -- police department should videotape. And audiotape more than interviews with people -- are accused of crimes. So it's come you know it's it's really the height of hypocrisy. But you have to go solely on what they say in the 30 -- which is that memorandums of an interview. And I can't tell you how many times in a Glover trial that the government's own witnesses. Would be questioned about what they told an agent in their own witnesses would say I never told my agent -- and. And there's only one side of it and and the other thing I'm thinking of is. You know the the the average citizen. If things that. If they didn't do anything wrong the Justice Department is they are representing him. -- and is -- an insane because. Why didn't do anything wrong that that's the federal government they're there to protect me and that's anything but the case it's. It's not -- won't say in every instance every policeman every assistant US attorney FBI agents going to go out there waiting hurting innocent person that's not what I'm saying. But if they have put it in on them on if it's there intention to try and prove a point with you. -- get ready it's common and you've got to be ready for. Tell me about the anonymous -- because I don't think people quite grasp why would G and man did -- What itself Eric Kohn did. Danny who knows who else was up to blood because I don't think the investigation has uncovered again I I I find it hard to believe that those were the only two. How that directly infected you affected rather you your life your trial on and what was said about you. It was bad enough Tommy dealing with. The on inform people who a didn't know me personally didn't know what -- Koppel -- for 27 years and Tom are retired. To be posting things based on emotional. On -- Half reported all articles in the times to -- -- -- just citizens due to citizens there that was bad enough. Not no one then but no one -- to have to be walking in a federal court -- some expectation. Of a fair trial. I mean I'm face and my maximum sentence for my five count federal indictment was sixty years in federal penitentiary. And be walking in a federal court and say and what lease citizens of wanna hear me and get my side of the story. And then you way to learn it at the same time this was going on you have members of the US attorney's office some com's. Likely -- in the same building -- trial won't post and things about -- And it's note telling Wally judge gives all of us to the jury not to go back and read news articles can you be certain that they don't. And they're making decisions on these things it and you know for people like Jan Mandalay don't call me a disgraced police also quote if she oughta know with disgraced is a -- -- not just EA Nino and suddenly it strikes me -- notches to read in the article but if any staying in if somebody's on a jury and then there wondering what to do you would think the comments might be the more important thing -- more than a story because there wondering what the community things and which way they should go. You know it specially Tom -- -- -- was -- specially in a black community. You know you get -- you gonna have a certain percentage of jurors it's gonna come from the black community and I have no problem with that as long as they keep an open -- evidence. You don't this affects him more specially with the talk of what the police department was in a negative light. How was this postings going affect especially those George when I get a fair shot and I'm not see an all black people can't give off of can give you a fair trial it's not what I'm saying and but it's obviously it's it's. Fools those type of comments. Because you know that they. I worked when he lived on dealt with predominately black people most -- careers for us helping them and arrest and some. So with no -- being said we come back on talk about where you are now armed emotionally -- having been through this how it affects. You're feeling feelings about a institutions. About America about your perceptions of what you thought. The Justice Department was about what you thought America was about it and and it is just is really their for the Justice Department I know you listen regularly and I do appreciate that -- But Jeremy tell my story about being about being cuffed and stuffed wrongly by the NO PD and look. 88 it was a short bald guy they thought it was made it one to blame insulated they cleared it up and some on label when I was in the back of that car again Italian. I realized just like you was an eye opening thing for me I realize not everybody that's arrested is guilty -- not everybody in jail. Did some wrong and it changed my mind completely about a lot of things. Realize that the person -- Hangzhou and costly let's investigate -- is a human being that has the same. What qualities and flaws as every other human being if you get just happening get a bad one. You know whether it's in the US attorney's office or whether to help police also on the street you know that that when you -- up and I caught could turn real serious -- when you're locked up in prison for. Long period of time and thank goodness for these NO PD officers they did their job properly and found out I was detained not arrested but. By year's end of their mind had been made a -- non OP -- it changed my life even more. -- let me say this and we have to go to a break but -- There are so many fine. Quality won't police losses -- -- -- most so from now on leave and retirement just getting now. But there are so many of -- that risked their life every single day for these tourists city and go through a lot. That they really need to be complemented because a lot of most allowed to even under the conditions and and don't turn things that are going on now still doing my job. I'll let me get your take on the on US attorneys are there. People there that who would like to do things differently but it's just. The system that forces and operate like they do rule or -- some of them operate properly York. Is it a systemic problem when they all. You know our our conductors on the strain on his. -- dock itself. The odd thing is is that in my career because I did front line bombing crime and addiction comics and addiction. Was with the prosecution on a lot of cases that went to federal court. So there was there are a lot of fond quality prosecutors I've dealt with and I have the utmost respect for sore not pain would have broad brush say and any one group is his all batter all good the same thing within won't police department no more doctors and hospital. -- What they knew and what they should have done well let's questions we don't know if they did know should have done something else. I can't say but I'm going up you know in -- The way I look at the US attorney's office here in the wall once. I'll give them a -- benefit of the doubt and they gave me. I'll say this if -- man had been. Or sell parent -- had been the officers that cuffed and stuffed me in a -- in a car. I don't think got a -- now in twenty minutes. I -- saints think it's coming up this hour or more between German we come back and big 870 double WL doing German nice enough to spend some time -- this -- did you beat the Justice Department he was innocent I believe he -- And a lot of people aren't as lucky because sometimes they make up their minds. In terms of I don't know beyond you're doing what I -- trying to say. Well they don't Tommy again it goes back to the same thing that that you. A few expressed in -- federal system if you invoked you'll -- rights and say you're innocent you wanna go to trial a you're ready fighting a battle because. You're in a system that punishes you for. Wanna go to trial. In on it's it's it's not easy system the fight and all win. I let me let me do this summary to tax that came in one album. They should need be made a new movie very interesting you're damn right it is -- and I just don't know -- other in the absence of malice -- more hasn't been and really wasn't about -- -- they had Justice Department -- more hasn't been done and by the media doesn't more do more to look in and then another one says. And I'm not trying to offend you blame blame -- just trying to be honest here and a person took the time to text this guy is a criminal it's a shame me things get rid of a body. Is not a crime I need an -- of a body at that time it was after Katrina if you were here you know. It was a different time indeed the reason you put the body. And this was in it with the approval of your supervisor I presume was just correct in terms of storage at the time. Tommy again if you go back to what was proven in a trial on what is reality. When a body came to us a we will lied to about a global family who didn't tell us and they admitted in trial -- Benoit Callaway told the prosecutor. That he did not tell lost a policeman who just shot Henry -- so we got lies from the family of Henry global. The female police officers that just come from the scene of the shooting over to the school wants high radioed it in headquarters. They didn't tell. And then this this is not take my opinion I got all the discovered I got a lot of the transcript anybody wants to read it let me know we'll sit down not can show you with the government's evidence what took place. Mean my gut tells me yes. I cannot that you discovered I can tell you this much at one point we were told that they had no. Secret recordings office. And then shortly before the trial we were brought to court and they released a recording that. Also Simmons made and that was record we're recording was about a conversation we had no thought Thanksgiving -- or not. When offered to give -- ever report by hand because a report was critical whether it was a fake reporter or not I offered to give it ever report she thanked me she wanna get. She told the FBI but she told them in April 2010 and -- all the all important and that's what you're dealing. -- January opinion poll -- Jim Owens resignation. And I know you're trial didn't directly deal with this or at least your case wasn't he you don't know what his involvement was DDC Jim what is incompetent. Complicit or innocent just your opinion your -- -- American you're entitled to it. I am -- I am honestly. I don't know if I could summon up in just like that it out Hamas claimed that 7000 you are not it. I'll think I'll give them all the benefit of the doubt than they gave us this cops and say I don't know all the -- for one thing I think weakens thought that we haven't seen. They were very quickly go to police department's homicide division takes all you do get in Saudi Kaufman's computer. Examined for evidence why haven't they seized the computer's up in the US attorney's office on a personal computers of these people. And checked horned -- and see what's on name. While tied here we go on if you wanna be and then number for the saints Bucs game who -- nation called -- six so W lioness. -- G 609467. Right now color -- get a win. With the news talk and sports powerhouse of the gulf south. -- WL hides buds coming up more talk about Jim wasn't doing Sherman thanks for coming in you did beat the federal government but a lot of your friends did. Correct Tommy and and ask people to keep in mind is that even enough oral arguments in the fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. I think they get it because SA -- police officers were tried for things on charges that they would never tried before in the criminal case. It was proven at trial also -- did not obstruct a federal investigation we will live to that was ignored but as a lot of questions from -- -- -- -- -- so -- Hi we are thinking a lot for coming in thank all yell for listening for you Texan comments.