Jan 11, 2013|
Spud talks to Tax Foundation Economist Scott Drenkard about Governor Jindal's plan to eliminate state corporate and income taxes
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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
Thanks -- six so when they come home in 26 Sony severing area. Now we're mature businesses. And it. I got a good show for today. Got a bunch stuff in the pot later on today we're gonna be joined by Dave brought them. Parish presidents signed an on day and have but tonight says they're doing their -- reenactment. Of the about on the walls of Shawmut battlefields he's gonna Jonas a later today and tell us all about -- I meant to go that it's cool -- never seen -- night time. Daytime and any. In excuse you're rocking Carlos. 2670. Is our number here 866 city -- early seven our total for a while we're gonna start the day talking about. Talking about. Column auction. Since things irritate me. -- started talking about Bobby -- proposal to cut back on taxes here basically what he's looking to do. Is spend and a done to be talked about it in last hour with that with them. CB for constant. But joining me Scott -- entered is an economist for the Tax Foundation actually -- right there hey there mr. Scott -- you -- today thanks for joining us I don't want but not bad not bad governor general also eliminate -- state income tax here and increase the state sales -- to make it a revenue. Neutral -- other states have no state income tax. But they seem to be doing fine but they have a much higher property taxes they don't have -- and homestead exemption and such like we do let's. Let's start out by talking about the other states. How well they do how much money they -- -- and how they do it without an income tax. Sure I'm sort of a common element that they they don't have personal income tax now it. The -- there's I'm just gonna rattle them off of the top -- here -- Wyoming South Dakota Nevada Washington. Texas Florida and then ten Tennessee in New Hampshire only tacked on only tax some investment. Yeah I'm like an interest income things like that. Exactly exactly now. One things beyond those those states haven't come with the exception may afford a Washington is stated they'd get some oil revenue they're getting money from severance now. Governor -- severance taxes now governor. Governor Jindal saying. And that maybe you'll be able to do that without an increase in oil taxes or at least I haven't seen as part of the plan. And I know what we had CB go for -- come on here who is so are our guy here Louisiana -- and legislative watchdog we we we would defer to him many times. But what's going on and around some of the comments I was listening and talking -- Dubuque who was all right performing. Is that you know the whole plan hasn't been necessarily laid out there so yeah -- it it may not -- -- -- right now we don't know everything -- -- to begin with. Sure so yeah you're right there are there is they're it's still some parts of planet -- slash Dowd and this is just sort of our sneak peak by the in general. I find the trade off to be one debts. Mouton is a very attractive. Economists had generally found the most destructive taxes for. Growth for economic growth are personal income taxes our corporate income taxes first being most destructive and personal income taxes the least destructive taxes for growth -- sales taxes. Followed by the property taxes. So will governor Jindal is there is proposing here is. Maybe we -- -- at all -- as planned but he's gonna get rid of two very destructive taxes on growth. And increased taxes that are at least destructive to ground. So this kind this kind of makes sense actually if you if you look at what a sales tax doesn't -- what state income tax does. -- income taxes. Tend to dis incentivized. Creation of new wealth creation of do you value. That Ronald Reagan famously said if you tax something you'll get left and then why would you want a tax income creation. I'm a sales tax only on the -- you know on the flip side. Is he is going to tax consumption is gonna promote savings that savings is associated with long term growth so on and so it's. -- -- -- and then from my reading of the literature it is better tax for promoting long term growth. Now I know at first -- -- I'm. Not the biggest advocate in the world for fair tax -- I think that's much fairer and this is more of a fair tax and anything else but I mean that the tax. The whole tax code nationwide and -- at state level I think needs to be. Revamped and needs to be simplified and if there were a flat tax the government knows what's your gross they take a piece of a pint. Off the top and then that's it if they do a fair tax like this that is the consumption tax. You get to decide how and how much you consume although the fair tax -- -- Push that's a nationwide thing and and you're talking like you know they're talking Tony 325%. And the only say so you have about it is whether or not you go spend your money. This tacks here the raising raising taxes. On on purchases here in the state Louisiana from what to four to seven. And a little bit higher than that. It took me it it I see the argument of people going you know it's gonna hurt the poor because their paycheck to paycheck but they also. Don't. They don't have to I mean you get more -- home bring home in your check to begin with. And you have more say so about what you actually spend the tax is on I think this would be a much more appealing. Even to lower and lower middle income and lower income people if the basic necessities of life did not. Have this same Tex you know like you gotta have food you gotta have shelter. You -- have lights and water right in sewage at your house and of those four things were not taxed. And everything else was I think it might feel a bit more appealing to -- everybody across the board. Well -- seniority jump into the exemptions. Indeed the name of the game with sales tax reform in the next couple decades. It's going to be expanding this sales tax base to services so let me explain that a little bit. In the 1930s when sales taxes were created. They were placed on the sale of tangible personal property the sale of goods. And for awhile that worked pretty well. In in the thirties that good script and good represented. 33%. About a third of the economy. It in the United States now we've transferred and now we're much more a day. -- good represented two thirds of the economy. Now they represented. Just a third of the economy and services are much larger part of the economy now is great economist named John-Michael who's chronicled this and he's shown that that based. Train every single year and took two run. This sort of pushed back against that. -- they haven't. Haven't expanded their base like they should do incorporate the new parts of the economy that are coming in the services have expanded. They just raised rates we've got to really distortion -- tax right now in almost all states. Where were were punishing the goods industry. And were in this on network subsidizing the service industry has the service sector of the economy. So as a component of -- Jindal plan. -- bring services under the sales tax base this is a reform that. You know it did did you -- -- following this have been advocating for the past couple decades and and in fact that the report that I think is gonna need to happen in all the states in the next couple decades south. I'm I'm. I'm kind of excited the prospect does Louisiana sort of shelling the way in this regard on unsound sales tax reform. Art is everybody can have remained -- every man. The federal government is now up to what 46 cents on every dollar that they spend is borrowed money I mean in just a couple of -- just a few months ago was forty cents and -- you know it's been. Steady rising fur or a good while. It. I think one of the things that pits is trying to push for and and one thing I have -- for -- are not economists I'm not sure how to do it but it's a simple mathematics goes you can't keep going at this rate. And states themselves need to start need to stop going to DC. For money us included Louisiana included needs to quit doing that and I mean we send. I think we get back more money on the dollar that we send amber were also still build a step back up after robe a bunch of storms we got smacked with. But pretty soon it's gonna get to a point where everything's going to be -- money in none and then the Donald's -- who were -- -- -- So it is is. Win -- you -- -- are we now is this the beginnings of out of a huge tax -- -- legitimate tax reform. Where in instead of income tax everything's gonna start switching around to. More of a fair tax type of deal -- you think this is just one more. Splash and a -- -- them are gonna go right back the way we work. Well there's there's a couple of ways to tax consumption you can tax the tourists sales tax you can tax sit through of that. We -- tax sit through a contending contacts which looks kind of like a fair tax. The bill was. Those are all economically the same but administratively different. I can go into the differences there but I think the push for economists. Now is done. Is to promote to promote consumption tax is generally -- people are kind of scared of -- because. And that in addition to the income tax structure we have right now would be a nightmare -- they get. Yeah and I mean that in Europe has that Britain has that they haven't income tax and they have a value added tax. Exactly exactly now is that the Vietnam do -- declared that of that has a pretty good base state that the base pretty pretty well a fairly neutral tax. But increasing rates year after year after year end on end. And that's that's gonna have a negative effect on economic growth is you're taking more more at a private sector and putting into the public sector so. And especially the more he's been on transfer program concerns such as. Social Security Medicare Medicaid it's central does that there's a damaging to economic growth in the long run. But as far as the idea of shifting to consumption tax is generally shifting away from taxes on income shifting -- taxes on sales and to me is a component. Especially for local. Local finances rather local revenue and property taxes are part of that is well. I needed to step toward. Better tax policy moving away from income. Actually put this but this and I got to -- what can I keep it to about every hour. Our -- the -- the income of against the clock work when we come back here we'll also talk about. Our homestead exemption in the state I mean if it is that's sacred cow in this state I have made statements saying that. You know what I asked our home citi's the first 75000. Value of your house and then then they start taxing -- -- that and some people. You know the house is worth that much or hasn't been. Really don't know long time so they basically cleanup and I think where they should do is taxed you on the first say 20000 dollars of value of your home. Then exempt the next 75000. In the tax -- above that that way everybody. Who owns a piece of property will be paying something. And I don't know I've been chastised for that and other people pat me on the back so we'll talk about that if this if this text of the deal goes through like -- of trying to push. Is that eventually going to be the end of the homestead exemption as we know him -- Louisiana European. And your calls and of people and Emma got text messages to here's -- on -- -- -- semi -- come -- the real time Rebecca does but surely it's seventy WWL. My I guess it's got -- do is that correct. That's it. Economist with the Tax Foundation tells a little bit about the Tax Foundation have you guys on frequently but it you know. Well we've got to be such a polarized society like the first thing you when you made a comment about people a lot of economists say this. Somebody Symantec's I don't know only the conservative economists say don't -- so. You know what is the Tax Foundation -- people find out more about it. -- explanation is a nonpartisan nonprofit. Tax research organization were in Washington DC. And we monitor tax policy at the federal state and to some extent local levels. I work for this kind of urged state estate tax policy here. And you can visit our website at Tax Foundation dot org. I'm attitude studies I was mentioning earlier we actually just released a comprehensive report on taxes and grow -- chief economist will McBride just put it out. Where we lists 26 studies in fact only three of them. Found no no relation between taxes and growth but 23 studies that point six. Finding negative relation between taxes and growth so. I hired you check that out our web site. Until it's pretty excellent piece. All right now let's talk about if this is going to be attacks where it's a it's a boat like a fair tax liquor consumption tax. Some of the blog responses I read articles from I'm reading about those journals proposal. One of the first things they signal and looks like an MB -- most of my stuff on line I mean technically you are supposed to pay taxes and state Louisiana for -- things I want. What is -- voluntary and and come get me you know I mean how they got a contract that will will that will. Purchases like that take a big hit. From online -- states now won't pass -- -- going if you're in this state you know I mean because I only got to do is like Delaware -- some other place that has all a bunch of corporations there because their corporate tax -- Villages basis stuff out of there they won't pay any taxes the ship stuff to me I got my stuff and end state Louisiana. Doesn't collect any at any any fair tax. Well certainly that is a concern. And cross border shopping does exist I've read a couple good reports that show that the -- -- people do respond taxes by shopping in other states now. Louisiana has the benefit of being surrounded by three high sales tax states around it. And I Arizona pace he. Thought had a rate -- combined average local rates so. Eight point five 8% Mississippi is 7% rate Texas has an eight point 014%. To keep combines state members locals now. Eight in the in the tristate area near me and the Virginia and Maryland and DC. Virginia has a really low rate of 5% across the board and everything so you know we get our closer to Virginia I'd be concerned about. Cross border attacks. However Louisiana is closer to those states have. Higher sales taxes so yeah I'm not that concerned about across quarterbacks in this case now as for the online shopping. I think one of the good ways to mitigate any kind of revenue loss from online. Online shopping is. The fact that this sales tax bases hypothetically going to be expanded services. Hard to -- services online when their delivered TU. In the form of -- service that that that counts as a physical presence in the state and you have to collect sales taxes on it. -- service put -- like if I hire somebody to come. Clean my house that's the service but I'm paying them in cash money you know and I mean how much -- declaring. You know waiters -- waitresses who get paid like chump change and -- offer tips they're technically supposed to. You know list down every tip that they again and I guess it's easier to keep track of it if it's gone on a credit card to someone that. But I finally asked if you know I mean is this -- or not is this gonna open the door look there's always going to be away no matter what tax system you've got. There's going to be some way to cheated and this seems to me you know -- paying for everything in cash money is going to be the way to sidestep. Taxes on on -- service. You know there are some -- concerns to be presented their -- On the whole I think the best way to mitigate those just really have a properly funding the functioning sales tax one that. Taxes all final sales at one low rate. I'm currently do because the raiders. Some higher on goods and and -- and doesn't exist on services you can avoid. Buying goods with senior state by buying them across state lines or in. In in other states I mean are more online. If you expanded its services he didn't. Does have to be presented in the states so the you know tax fraud is is something to be concerned with but it authenticity income tax code I don't I don't that the. I don't exist that I don't see it as being a fundamental reason to be against. Governor Jindal plan. And and his primary reason for doing from one I'm reading is that he wants to incorporate also attract more business is -- more people and we've lost two in two. Well every every census rolls around basically we've lost on the -- Texas is now like America people were leaving California and drove it on attachments. Are reading again read articles you read a blog response and don't fix and retire cell and everything I own a move to Texas and I like the way they do business. And this is some way they do business they don't have income tax they have a considerably higher. Well property taxes they got higher probe purchase taxes but no no income tax and a slight. If I don't own a piece of property unite and I'm watched careful about what I spent I get to hang on a Mormon money. -- so let's let's talk about the corporate income tax this is what I see is the best portion of the plan. I've mentioned earlier corporate income taxes surge in Japan are cited as among the most destructive to growth. There are also some of the highest compliance costs per dollar collected it. Meaning that you know all these corporations have to hire lawyers and accountants to make sure that they get exactly you know pay as low as they can. On the next units within their rights yeah you shouldn't pay more taxes than you actually go. But they spent a considerable amount of time looking for credits and special carve outs in the code as well I think in in the lobby and excel. You get rid of that tax he's -- -- out all of a sudden those compliance costs would represent a total loss. You know economic value I mean it's it's total economic waste. -- you can throw those out the window and start putting putting those resources towards more productive growth in the states. And now. He expect getting rid of the -- and all of this by the way I don't know if I've mentioned this yet. The corporate income tax collection just 3.5 percent of state and local. Revenue in Louisiana in 2009. So it's a very very unproductive. Our -- but it's also mean you're also wanting to attract more people so frankly what you gonna do is have more corporations here. That the percentage of the tax across the board will be bigger. Because they're more people actually pay and that -- by the way I got to step away for -- thank you B again are okay and keep it to forty. A must read this thing too I mean as they're looking at this introduces bill. They're going to be charging for services. But. Is still our lawyers and accountants going to be exempt from that. And I'm wondering how many people in our legislature lawyers and accountants. Mountain I got a call started -- -- hang on forever and got a whole bunch a text messages. I got to the point do the news my guess is god drinker and he's an economist with the Tax Foundation and we're talking about Bobby general's proposal would do away with the income tax. And swap them around for us sales tax and other. Things so let's let's let's find out what else going on the world then back which is causing comes on sports show. -- we're back since it's only -- -- number 8668890. Point seven he has not told for Lima justice got drinker it is an economist. With a Tax Foundation and we're talking about Bobby jungles proposal governor general. Wants to eliminate the state income tax and increase the state sales tax. To make a revenue neutral -- other states have no income tax seem to be doing fine. So what are they doing to make it work so we'll talk about that joining me Scotch drinker let's go to phone James is -- and hang in on more than patiently thank you James jump on WWL. Eight I think -- yeah I just wanted to bring up the fact that. But wind certainly could devise something in a retail merchant her deployment failed. There are -- basically paying these taxes but they're paying them and really any efficient way. And lead. Well it isn't all these compliance costs and all the income taxes for I was suppliers and everybody else. Providing these products. I would think some factor there built right into the price of the product already -- -- built into an extremely inefficient way. Well I mean don't let them. Doesn't it everybody Joseph blow walk and grocery pays for everything either pay for an as a taxpayer or consumer the corporate. Their their corporate tax rate is gonna go down. But they're not gonna pay it anyway regardless of what the corporate tax rate is they're gonna pass it on to the consumer. So but if the consumer is having to pay less of the corporate tax -- re going to be getting more bang for our -- and thereby have more books to banged. Form other corporations to pay their taxes to. Absolutely and that's the other thing about it is that they both failed to attack on the parliament would not because the poor are gonna make I think -- and they're they're actually paying these taxes -- already. They should -- hidden tax. Couldn't they don't know about it. -- -- James you're exactly right. Economists have found over the past couple decades that corporate income taxes. Are entirely passed on there they're not they're not paid but you want take. Want corporations to pay their fair share. Didn't count on the taxes because it's a competitive market and that's how work on -- pass them on to consumers in the form of higher prices or they passed them on to. The labor in the form of lower wages. The economic literature has been going recently more of a trend toward tapping on two. And labor and lower wages or they passed them on. I'm in the form of lower pay holder lower shareholder payouts. And so he is if you can't you can't tax businesses they've they've passed them on and and take it to cost of doing business and cost of doing business are passed on in the speaking in various forms. So the question here is. Why don't we attack and when we get at those three basis that I just mentioned it much more efficient ways and and think this plan -- is a step toward doing that. Really reduce it to be bureaucracy. Surrounding just the market policing consumption is witnesses should be focused on the products. Asian people -- down there there's happened -- people. -- employees. And things like that patiently sitting around -- room trying to figure out the best way to dodged taxes and reduce the tax burden to complete waste of time. Is there's going to be. I haven't read anything about payroll tax or anything like that but I mean with empty the next step if if if you do away with the income tax. Do you think further down the road different if things become more -- sales tax more prepared text -- across the board. Doing away with the state income tax to some -- attacks gone if they gonna do it at state level. Across the border fence again have to do but that's not true I mean there's already several states until it but I mean what that end up doing away. Completely with payroll tax and -- surviving completely on bond sales tax. Now there's -- I. You know the federal scene right now is so very different from the states seen in terms of what's what on the table. Actually. You know -- -- give an -- money. I mean that's a fair tax thing as -- one of the problems with that is that is -- you know -- income tax every time his income taxes a loophole. And any time as a loophole somebody gets to determine the loophole and if you get to determine the loophole that's power. If you have a sales tax and I determine how much taxes on gonna -- by how much I actually buying. Then I have the power in an out and they've they've they've given it up basically cause they don't have that loophole to give anymore. And it ends but the other thing that's that's important here is that once you have once you take advantage of a loophole. You become a constituency for keeping that loophole in place on the especially concerning the corporate income tax where. -- there's there's so many and it it -- littered. So much with credits special credits for special activities whether it's job creation and or or investment or. The courtroom. Or anything. It's Italian film tax credits I know Louisiana's one of these. Most generous film tax credit program. Indian in the fifty states. And it any developed constituents these people don't want these things to go is civil lobby day. I'm a big gap against them because I'm an actor but I'm also big am beginning to make sure that nobody -- anything can be abused and cheated so. MI an advocate for them and riding the people who broke those laws the people who tweak those laws that people take advantage of the tax credits. Absolutely. Item like a horse and make sure that they not use the -- to cheat anybody. But I mean the amount of film that has brought into the state in the infrastructure and the number of people. I mean people like me who I believe to make a -- I've known if I have friends of mine who -- movement back to the state in droves because there's more work here in the film in in the film industry and because of that is expanding now. The theater industry so. I mean this this state in this city which is got a lot to offer entertainment wise is actually getting the hang on. -- the talent than they've been sending on to the rest of the world for decades. So I'm a big I'm in favor of all this but I'm also in favor of watchdogs sit on top -- it. Don't let -- get carried -- -- that's very easy thing to do James I got to step away thanks for your call thanks frank and on Charlie and -- Any interesting elements that there's a text message their -- -- -- got a in a full sales tax program media advertising -- text. Years ago once they tried full sales tax with a -- -- meets -- -- crucified the performance. Does that mean that be one of the services is one of those things are gonna play this. Well ideally it properly function sales tax is going to attack result final sales but it -- -- this incident -- Zacks analyst. I'm an ethical always ask your innings felt easy access the advertising is included entered the business transaction it should be shouldn't be taxed. Got to step away. I'll hang -- if you stay but I gotta go I got a subway and come -- breath and got drink -- my guess. Thomas with a Tax Foundation -- your calls and comments for him as a safe but in the meantime the front a little going on there will be back to what are the best. Titles but show Scott had to go why he was actually eligible some days until about a quarter after an attempt until one Ito ordered -- -- And -- -- -- -- much your question -- go right back your phone calls here the well the first and talk about this morning. This afternoon governor general wants eliminate the state income tax increases -- sales thanks to make it -- revenue neutral deal. Somebody called up and -- did it's got to admit that states pays zero. Taxed no I'm not states -- corporations paid zero state tax practically no. Every corporation every business that operates they basically figure everything into the cost of doing business and that's on the set the price for their product. Whether it's the service or product or whatever and the cost of the taxes are. Are factored in so Joseph blow citizen out there either as a taxpayer -- consumer. You're gonna eat the cost for everything. Period in the story one way -- told her it's gonna make its way down to you. So a corporation that's that manufactures something and sells it to you they've got to pay taxes they figure out what their taxes are going to be. And what it cost to make what they're gonna do and what it cost advertised the sale of what is gonna do and that's how they set the price on their product. You know and that plus the minimum price -- what they think they get away with you know there's. Some people up their pain and 500 I'll repair issues the costs exactly the same amount of money to make that a fifty dollar pair -- -- but somebody's willing to pay 500 bucks for Sami -- -- it that way just by everything on sale. But you know that's that's what we're talking about this hour Charlie's and Arab behind you don't charge thanks for hanging on your and a video. Caught -- OK right now -- it bought. It established in this state income tax. It's eliminated. It -- delegates and not pay check out Jean Leonard -- people that don't compliment than to go up extremely almanac. Oh yeah the stuff fixed in come yes dean who -- are you on a fixed income Morgan close to a. Opening the door so what I'm trying to I don't know. I don't know what you gotta pay in income tax born and on the money that you get on retirement type fonts I haven't a clue I mean look. I'm agreeing blog response people go and look Tom I've been living in Louisiana home alive I'm fixing to retire in as soon as I do himself and almost -- and moving to Texas. There's a lot of places that look at the fact that they don't have. An income tax as a as an enticement to move there so I think what generals trying to do whether you agree with how he's doing and not hear somebody senator attacks on. I don't believe -- is just a talking point to run for president. What I mean his ultimate goal at least he says this is to bring people and businesses back into the state because there's been an outflow. For decades. You know I had been ill put retired people and can make a lot of money and that -- out of it back now to be in more -- back. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Medical and racquet and the service and act and act. Yeah. Yeah -- and I don't. Well you know that the one of the things he hasn't Jindal has not. Done an interview about this and this is the preliminaries. Soul. It's not gonna happen without major passage through the legislature. It's -- is going to be an uphill battle begin with and I mean that's your argument is going to be on the leave it -- side. When whenever you know but that's just that you know that's that's the whole point of this stuff -- little bit -- But the well -- everything's just pass on -- of -- The group behind you know there are people really a 100% benefited from Social Security is the ones who were the first of four they didn't have to pay into it at all and yet but I got the bottom line is though. It's gonna have to be. We have been we've lost two congressional seats because we lost population. We're losing businesses. Don't have nearly the fortune 500 companies -- someone I want to Dallas to go see. Jersey voice and been to Dallas in years since the eighties I was doing standup and I mean. Used if you haven't been there as well look I don't wanna live there act kind of prefer the smallness of New Orleans. But when you see what fortune 500 company money does. You know I mean they had some really nice stuff up there and I think what he's trying to do is attract more corporations that -- that would attract more fortune 500 companies. And then we would have some really nice stuff like some of them -- states that. Well he's going about it the right way or a successful way. That's when he says his goal is that goal I can agree went the path to get to that golden notes. -- appreciate it to 670 got to step away again. Are your calls and comments next hour -- we're not going to pot there is an organization out there what's -- called judicial watch. Judicial watch just file. -- Under the Freedom of Information Act they are again and -- as are others trying to get all the pictures of Osama bin Laden that is up for any opinion poll. A conservative group is pushing again to have any and all digital file of the -- body released to the public should they be released or not yes -- -- don't like cast your vote. It was hard taking your calls on that one next -- -- -- what's going to be at seven I don't talk Oscars and our number 30 got a -- show's been around. -- but surely -- seven NW the BL we were talking about Bobby Jindal. Plan to change the Indians do away when income tax return and and a sales thank chancellor -- shorts they chant has gone. You. Have been born and lately but I don't know bigot here at Olympic clippers every year. Yeah Doug who have been -- come back. They have their belt back. It -- -- people out there were three good and -- good and bad the bad the bad tomorrow. Okay I've seen it looked a little bit about it but there. How would be dead at Purdue did -- -- come back because I'd be able to leave the I -- -- -- bet money that the state. Now don't not wit cook we do a lot of we do a lot of tourism business here but Florida is huge I mean the amount of money the Disney World along kicks and -- Florida. Is a serious chunk of money Universal Studios all the beaches and everything else they have massive influx of tourists dollars mean what how does that is that when they announced that it. It's -- step back and there is one unit posted did you tell you go back felt that in -- if I do. And -- back here. True but they also have a lot of people a lot more people coming there from outside the state and -- net sales tax the benefits. -- actually. Yeah very true. Meanwhile that's the whole point that you get to determine how much tax your -- by by deciding how much money you spent. You know inside the best we can't -- instead you don't -- back. Very true but and and I mean if there's an exemption for the necessities of life. Where you don't pay any tax on literally literally food. Water service to your house electric service to your house and your rent.