Oct 10, 2013|
Garland talks to CATO Institute Research Fellow Julian Sanchez about the super secretive TOR computer network
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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
What's your new movie you really don't I'm sure you've heard all the doors. Government cracking his company's practice individual pride in his. All of the hacking the grooves on all over the world and the constant. -- tinged -- to bring. I'm really booms and then not outward -- to to break encryption it's. And an older safeguards and the few safeguards that are now guarding our privacy. Provision to -- duplicate. Reporter in Foreign Policy Magazine group group of volunteers from all of the work. Supported by the US State Department. The -- to tool for anonymous communication that is so secure. Good evening the world's most sophisticated. Electronic coupons and yet figured out how to crack it. -- them the only thing you're absolutely so I think it is. NSA National Security Agency. Has been aggressively. Trying to attack. This -- department. Core of and to look at couldn T nor. The State Department got a from the US navy. To go one State Department taken from the navy and then another government agency. Trying to break what they happen. To better understand this and see upended the usual portrait generated or writer and had -- Julian Sanchez is joining us. Research fellow with the Cato Institute Julian thank you so much appreciated the call. This seems a little strange is this correct. One government agency attacking another government agency trying to hack into what they've created. Well not directly ammunition this is an independent software project an open source soccer project created by a lot developers aren't. Directly at it -- with a government that computer experts around the world news Steve good. But that's right yet originally it was dark and -- read your laboratory that that under that act. Myriad other organizations and according money over the years now a lot of the planning doesn't come from the State Department and did not exactly attacking another government agency certainly. Attacking -- pay. And open source software project that has. Traditionally gotten most of its funding from the government because it's such useful tool. -- or. -- -- -- and trying to hide there and communications but little clipper I've dissidents and repressive regimes you're trying to escape. Censorship or persecution. Or did that that in itself is a little confusing and insurgencies tourism -- for terrorists and spies. Say department says in the and they seemed to take ownership of that its platform proud to be true in the very very content surveillance system that in as saying he has built. -- And the problem here is that if you are a -- or they're in a regime like China or Iran. What you need is a way to communicate and get information. Anonymously without even the government. Being able to identify you -- track your traffic. The -- coordinate your criminal or terrorist what you needed exactly the things bank. And it's not really a way to develop a system that. Secure again. Bad governments but not against good government. It is easier to get both or neither. The it -- -- you can only reduces -- a huge into the everything I've read says infection with the cold tags of the individual computers that we use on the anonymous service. As we go in and out of war. But what what's tags is that like a cookie. Well that he'd get him that yet and isn't it that the problem here is bad. Yeah that they want to be able to identify and track or users. And that ends up being difficult because the network is designed to avoid that the way it works and people's communications. -- a bunch of relay. And wraps and actually multiple layers of encryption. I'm definitely an onion and -- that the name comes from originally called onion router. And so. At each step in the replay no one machine actually knows the origin and the destination and that it makes it. Incredibly hard to track. Waiter a particular piece of traffic is coming from we're going chip and one way. To do that in between the network itself is so well designed it's very hard to break. Is that he's trying go around it you trying and basically force the computers that are using -- to identify themselves. In -- wet. And so you can either. I get a fire fingerprints computer. When he's not using the Tor network and then -- -- fingerprint to try and match up. Features of the communications. And they're leaving. The anonymous part of it Tor network so you can not itemize all your traffic but it you have. Left some way to like get up by your computer. It in -- in the request itself. Bend the anonymity in the network doesn't help -- are absolutely way of of basically trying. Trying to. I get a -- -- you heard by a using various kind of attack to force them to identify themselves even though the network by debt buying. Or illusion covers -- comebacks do a few more minutes of your time. We're thinking about apparently I was wrong -- suits it's not our government attacking our government is huge. Our government attacking and in it to you do it's funded by. Our government. I think I got -- -- don't come back and check gonna love them with the recall that the thing tech. Always point out when. It looked like I was wrong for myself borrowers laughing. Korda and that -- to me sounded like the government trying to act and to the government. But I have a true with me you. Julian Sanchez can Richard Cohen drew. -- -- that is right. There was a government agents and national. Security agency in this. Trying to hacked the computer. Program that's funded by the State Department is that -- group. That's right it is that security program developed by the Tor project that was funded by the State Department and the and -- He's so good that it there haven't been able to break get it and enabled it to break -- anonymity to provide for people using it. And so what they've sort of been forced to do -- try to act around it they've developed is -- apparently very investigated. Waves are looking for people who are using that software. And it leading the software and nearly a bunch of other characteristic they're looking for how they're also. I think -- web -- we think it does -- and they're acting and you know they're they're language used that to a -- being imparted -- you think they will inject. Into the traffic. Basically I think it will redirect those users. So that their computers can be automatically act essentially so they can be forced to identify themselves lose very elaborate. True artist you know hacking program that is the result of the NSA. Not being able to break. And anonymity program that the government itself on that. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- To go after weaknesses. In an all or user computers specifically those of those shoes in the in the -- or Firefox are you aware of them. That's right. They hit a particular actors are -- -- -- the -- that fire our networks and other browser does -- probably also have vulnerabilities but. The browser is very often the week yet. -- of Europe security and away the browser is the part of this sort of connecting constantly on the Internet and have to be. Able to handle and display. A lot of different kind of contents and often and run. Primitive computer -- and so. It is the mostly. Actual target it is it to bowling over kind of there's always new vulnerabilities to exploit. Net and that I mean that is in a way. I think you know I think your hand and a place where -- gonna Wear gloves don't want to. Did he get germs between the department touching. A so many different germ filled plate and all the time it's all we usually them but it the most vulnerable like. Are you know we will -- confusion and -- I'm looking at headlines right now you're -- -- who's who's. Our turf war -- we need to police schools media tracking your behavior. Cellphone trucker just cuts -- cellphone tracking just got -- and new software or content upon what you're doing and even the president of the Tor project. Says infecting the lap dog owner their stock is still -- -- -- learn about who you war -- in the keyboard. How how is this an anonymous. Channel. That and as they -- not breaking into womb we're being told. Feels like everything we're brewer would do is being watched by somebody or a lot of -- Well but that's that's actually right. Wait I -- let someone say. He usually not going to be to attack -- -- healthy toward the because operated with that but we design. To be secure and anonymous the problem court administered using -- you're probably using it technical -- -- just about as ignorant there are. To be secure and anonymous. So for example someone make the mistake and is trying to be anonymous eating a war. But then they login still using tortured at bill Gmail accounts. Then. We didn't strip and minute window -- -- used the same. Open relay to connect about the president -- here -- -- Those. There's no -- anonymous that the traffic to your real identity. When you have a lot of stuff is designed not. The be anonymous and one because opera that really is designed to be in -- it's always going to be easy here to try and track people buy it. Correlating only information from the non anonymous stop but it didn't bury our. You know if you're trying to be. You know careful insecure and I -- To use use this software in a way that doesn't accidentally leak. Some kind of an information externally it's always you know basically that the person that the weak link the software -- strong. But people make mistakes. Julian I appreciate the time and the education you have -- do appreciate your calling and coming right back double -- a bill brigade celebrity immoral climbed three you have to. As New Orleans is feeling gumbo a big -- 71053. -- -- WWL dot com. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Government should do and there's still that word and they all looked very good book in June don't agree that can handle the job. Well administration could humans are now living in your book. Nineteen certain rewards they could get them fired penalized or imprisoned. If they make the wrong choices while the government is shut down. Belongs -- and tied deficiency act. Passed by congress and 1870. Which prohibits the government permit -- any monetary obligation. For which congress is not appropriate funds all the workers now we're assuming -- know mostly. Don't do much you could end up going.