The question to all of us who wanted to bring money. You've come at a time and tell them again and B roll -- -- we don't even numbered shows above the -- for -- and the billion needed. Remember -- -- -- -- billion in the year appropriate to build in -- is where's the money what we've got high in the bill but yeah. We might get more nobody's really sure what has bought. The money -- received support is not enough of that for. Making sure Katrina isn't happening and the and we -- the shows on infrastructure. Over 40%. Plus a bar drinking leaks into the ground. Because of broken borders says some water pipes -- the and that's about a billion dollars plus we knew that when news coming from. Reading yesterday the fireman's pension fund -- since dropped 9%. In 2012. Shrinking income promote investment rising cost. They say we -- -- it is citizens. The only. Action news we are upon the numbers but. The firemen are saying that we all do in certain things on there a pensions of not being -- now being put in. And look at this with the City Council. It's facing budget or November the 22. And -- I'm currently getting short. Federal judges. Forcing consent decree -- Concerning our prisons concerning police department and that. And -- goes and wants there to point two million dollars to -- -- went fourteen. For the new prison so. We thought would call corporate and propose your dental Demeco assistant professor of economics. University proposed well short and it. What are your thoughts on this were gonna get money Perot. Oh my my first our our -- -- the price tag seems a little bit on affordable without having. A bit. Economic consequence straight. He can't necessarily. Borrow or maintain massive deficit that that should a year urban level. So. Tax rates and spending programs in New Orleans and and other urban environments tend to mean that. A higher tax rate which which the the lower economic performances -- direct trade off. It's silver lining being on this particular issue about prisons though is that around the country. You only recently booted. Examples that we have of State's worst cities that have that it managed to get beer president grow under wraps. Are those environments that have. Budgetary issues. -- so Minnesota it was a really good example of this in the late 1980. Pages. And have the space to continue building prisons. And so our Jupiter they're there they're low. Government revenue. I'm out they had to think critically creatively. About alternative sentence saying it better lesions strategy other ways of resolving crime other mass incarceration. A long known about turn what looked to collect let me take our first break and analysts and talking about the prison when we come back. We're on the -- year old professor Daniel DiMicco assistant professor economics or -- university. We're doing it about a very and number of very important. Financial issues infrastructure issues societal issues in this city. Admitted big pit board and so far. Haven't been able funding by the knows exactly where all the money's coming from what do you think you got comments questions we got the expert. 2001 need somebody told 3866. Indeed now and 087. A call -- up with the -- the thing. Returned it about a number of financial issues are Sunni princes from infrastructure. To prisons to fireman's funding and on and on. Whether it's we have assistant professor of economics at local university professor dental Demeco professor -- -- for the people that -- that. Explain the the -- correlation between. Other states and don't simply it's something different but their presences. All in general. That prison population sort of history in the last few decades the United States says it's really big problem with massive growth. And it tends to be really focused in a few key state state cycle -- yen at Texas California lord senator. Armed. By. Both wore that trend was really identified. Both war. -- some of these key stage really got out of -- today in the pending. Aspect. A number of state were were concerned with growing prison populations because of the fiscal issues. And in those environments that. Talk about fiscal stopping point almost like eight include debt ceiling if you -- Don't -- places where. Different decision makers throughout the criminal justice. Process. Judges had to absurd. Police departments that are. They had to think critically about other ways of responding to. Cry and and and social order without relying on Britain necessarily so they had to get creative in terms. Parole sentencing they had to get creative in terms. Community policing in and -- the current model deterrence. In general. I mean even that we throw a lot of from policy measures in and had symptoms can protocol that the the federal level. To respond to prison crowding in -- and and pretty broad. It's only really -- this fiscal constraint that it had sort of good. Lasting effect or or reliable affected -- That we're the only time that we really cut down on stage is when there's simply no more money tool for. It looks over simple blood pour brought me to be able to understand something let's just say. The sheriff points 36 point two million dollars for the new prison -- fourteen. And and we give -- to -- is that by selling bonds. Well there's only three ways that any government can possibly. -- revenue either going to be taxes are in on what you're talking about. Direct taxes. Bonds and just future taxes right it just means it would have to pay that bird in the future our war the federal level you have -- You have certain requests war or or direct like you -- printing. The at that the city levels that are really haven't cable's so is Jeter quite in taxes or future actions either -- -- To raise tax revenue or or spend. Out of the current coffers organ after. To borrow money bonding. But that -- the future tax liability both of those problematic because there's tax rates definitely. Typically decline in economic activity. And honorable and breeding for the bright and sure. A -- -- game working or illegally in this group -- through the world's going with that question. I think -- remembered that the council's. Limited. Initially the number of beds. And about 14100. Plus bed. And then agreed yesterday. That that play and used it more ignored yeah and now -- in the Europe but agreeing that number should be higher than. Fourteen under plots but lord and put the 500. But at the same time studio expert. Doctor James -- is quote to quoted as saying. Telling the council -- to focus on reducing the prison population and talked about. Pretrial services programs encouraging please McGrew were ripped -- England in the court system. And I hear exactly that from pleas from politicians. From the DEA's officer -- and do do all of the book. And then and why -- we've got state after state and some former -- the legalizing marijuana. If if we end up malicious say we end up with a prison -- area. Beds of 14100. Plots. But we have. 800 prisoners. Is is that a financial problem or because it's bonded we're just praying for space we don't use. Well figured your covering part of the problem. In other words if incarceration. Is sort of a simplistic strategy. To deal with very complicated. Social views so. -- you and I can philosophical debate or ethical debate about about what would be better for the city of New -- a liberal drug policy. Decriminalizing wanna. Having better community policing better school systems all of these things -- we probably. Something much much better. It will be -- -- we do in terms of incarceration of criminal justice. The problem oh he's. That. Agents who have decision making authority in the bureaucracy they're gonna do. Happened we each resistance there and do the things that maximizes the budget -- might Gerber. And minimizes the expense in terms of the airline's -- risk and I'm an -- So it's what they say oh we should do all of these games for better criminals such assertions it's another thing if we keep forty. Financially and and and through public finance and lending. The ability to continue building more more prison facilities so so what -- reporting that are well. Well we have a new facility in the larger and bigger and report what it. Actual crime as much below that. Oh that's sort of breeds bad incentives -- -- you'd -- it's cheap affordable resource. Of punishment opportunity. It could dole out to would be -- to get a deterrent against crime why would you think more sophisticated about better education protocol when you got that cheap. Affordable -- And -- and I understand what you're saying you know a thing called my ultimate -- is on them there and try and and in the -- to. -- let's say ready 2000 corporate housing poor people in my apparently. And I go to the mortgage on -- go to the mortgage company but give me a mortgage company for whatever it's worth and two of the members move -- they go to college just to review electorally. Using a very small space. What you paid the same amount of money right in and conceivably. That could happen in this had to wage and if we keep moving. In the area of pretrial service programs and -- making pure grass and streamline courts which. That correct. It right. But the bottom line from everything we're seeing right now we're gonna cut it and. Well absolutely I mean the -- it's. What's true for you -- -- -- part checkbook is more or less true. In government and you can't borrow money that you need to -- back. And the -- -- to issue at that level with regard to -- economic performance of the city that barge. If you have a lot. On debt. That sort of clouds it is opportunities today grade I mean you're not going to want to sort of set up shop. Either private individual resident moving Indonesia the or the business with the into the city no. But there's it's inevitable -- -- Coming down the pipeline around -- quarter. -- -- -- -- Where players union goodness knows we need part pars. Has some pork. Council via the they would only have ever read per truck in the national averages or fighting budget. -- And my homework landslide are real the unions saying -- yours and being given some of your. Annual contributions. The union itself over fifteen million dollars in equity two million dollar investment in the Cayman Islands that went bankrupt. And as well -- outstanding work more than 23 million dollars boon to businesses. One in columnist -- Now almost eight -- on over the last year and that the same time. The money blowing out of the union on retirement benefits and -- As well and thirty million from one. Week and dancing you know when news bar and we all paid for it. But I think when -- went some didn't get bonded I don't notice -- in my -- is a word about it. Does all of this aren't showing up we keep hearing that. We got a consent decree broken -- fractured. Arm and running out of money and when we start legally in this and. So. That comment about what's true for you were alive in our checkbook that you government. -- with regard to. The tape back write what it would -- -- why is that what you borrow money. -- created. A major. Between you're -- on the one government on the other. Is that. So weigh in. We knew we expand in the program why. Civil services that that often have these these. Obviously identifiable. Union groups and our date they know that their interest are all -- war. Reforms. Of government spends in. And the support and the expansion of those programs so they vote. So in other words if years ago you'd stand. An extra 50% gain in in in education in our road building or fire departments or whatever. He took part that translates into a larger labor force and an industry. It means. -- like we it. Of future. Spending and and increases an expansion in those sectors is gonna go out because now others a lot of -- -- use those. So you end up making. -- sort of spending programs for for for the sake of labor ministry could be political interest. Morse code for the sake of -- You old civil society like we just needs wouldn't order or structure that are. Not that I we have very -- problems and some scope of the problem in this that your probably 82 under fighting -- But I think it's also an opportunity insofar as you can inspire form. Of alternative and creative solutions. Weigh in went in the budget issue is more constrained compared to. Oh okay world -- and spend more and more and more beat him in look at what happened at public school in the city of Portland fire to treat. Is you'd spend good money after bad if you don't sixty incentives that people -- Make institution. Well performing at a good feedback. Professor learn something Thomas have you on the show appreciate it very much -- agreed. Great -- Professor Daniel -- Professor of economics -- university.