Oct 29, 2013|
Garland talks to Dr. Peter Pry about the threat from cyber attacks aimed at electrical grids
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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
Many minimum the -- we do on over the leaders overrode cyber security or lack of it in the United States. We've done everything on the stocks nav -- iris. Allegedly the United States and Israel kept others in an extremely supposed to gated. Computer -- to view wrong soon crude futures causing him to. Escalate their -- -- such report they disintegrated. And set back the big thing we hoped. Their nuclear program. Bomb program. And in all that breeding like a kept hitting on something on a regular basis. I didn't understand that your still totally -- It's something called electro magnetic. Pole so once called it. -- who magnetic disturbances. That could affect our -- power system. And we had a doctor Peter brought fraud and all -- earlier about and as blood sport short of the time we have just been in the music executive director of the task force on national Homeland Security congressional advisory board dedicated. To protecting the United States from weapons of mass disruptions. Who's actually electromagnetic. Holtz could touch. And the year that are regiment mile long served on the congressional MP commissioned. Congressional strategic posture commission also armed services committee in the CIA. Author of numerous books all about there's attempting electric -- welcome back to sure appreciate it time. Well thank you so much. For -- having me back to talk about that -- satiric but vitally important to. If you're among we're gonna get into the guts of via electromagnetic. Pulse potential content from his. But I went back cannot listen to what are your talks I think at the Carnegie science talk. And the first thing you started talking about. Is what I have heard a lot about the the sold -- -- some players electronic. Surges we get out of the sun that many people are concerned it could affect our electrical ripped. How big -- problem is that in in particular a bigger problem verses. Electromagnetic. Colts. Didn't nuclear weapons. Well it's interesting you should ask that because I just finish right in her article that another article. And it is a deal many scientists consider beat the bigger of the problem -- First of all it's inevitable. You know one can argue endlessly about whether Iran will go on the -- with the north Koreans would actually -- got to auction you know the attack and the United States. But you can't -- the -- And that -- someday there will be major magnetic superstore. In the end we thought we the normal. That you magnetic storms happen every year caused by the so we are fortunate because we. We in the United States. Can obviously -- -- -- both countries that live in the northern latitudes Canada Sweden Finland Russia. Experienced the -- magnetic storm. An annual basis that causes problems with their grit although they usually try to move forward to protect them. However not all successfully. In 1989 there was secure magnetic storm called the Hydro Quebec storm. That blocked out the eastern half of Canada ninety except. He reached on an active part of the United States -- -- -- transport security. The cost that the -- as 700000. Volt transformer we know that in ninety sec. By the polls and decided this is just the normal run of the mill kind of argument that export. What were concerned about is. The recurrence so I think once in the century -- that -- superstore like the 1859 curing it and if that happened it would affect. Electric grids that would the world wide phenomenon that would affect electric grid report the world cause. Everyone electric grids of all the critical infrastructures. To support likes to law collapsed and put billions of lights are pressed. And we're about fifty years -- were -- required to carry. And they happen about once a century. And that well you know you don't have to be a genius -- -- -- if you could -- was longer further growth of the century. And we're particularly concerned right now because in December. December last year to end the storm actually. This last about a year. And during the sober. Action on the -- put all war world match Egyptian support a statistical more or less objections to cause you make that extra. And so. It's like roulette -- white wash or what should let the shot. You know the question of time before these big crow match rejections. Hit and -- that Geo Storm like carried it and we -- produces enemies like that all the time just as we entered the solar maximum in December. We actually got program Carrington class romance objection coming off the so it's on a couple of -- -- -- -- And one of these objections is much larger -- you don't have to be a genius to see that one of these enormous. Chrome massive structure the travel part -- -- miles an hour advocating the error well that ruler were crucial day. Limited -- boom boom boom we conduct. We're we're starting with the the solar problem broke Google would be talking about the electromagnetic. Holtz. On -- from -- sorts. Doctor William come back. The question I have for you when we come back. A reading about a commission last -- that estimate of costs of hardening all over electrical grid and other critical infrastructures. There's about ten to twenty billion dollars over twenty years -- -- that figures -- and so. If we have a potential threat from the solar -- and and even bigger threat. From other countries is with the use electro magnetic bombs. Why wouldn't we spend that kind of money to simply Harden the electrical critical. Infrastructure. Governor bill -- 78 and one of 53 of them he got questions you got comments Gibbs call 260. 187203866890. Itself. Think about something a little bit different to sell or electromagnetic. Holtz could tasks have been brought on by such mated ball in court he MPs. Remove the world's experts with the stock repeater of fraud and executive director of the task force on national and Homeland Security. A commercial advisory board dedicated to protecting its state from weapons. A massive structure and doctor I go back to abuse speech Lucia Newman took notes on that you gave to the according it was a record against science talk. You -- -- form -- 2000 that you were convinced congress was gonna act on this -- the president. Knows about the -- threat. Have reacted and -- enough. Well good question well -- not part -- happen. Congress destroyed act and the president has struck acts on. We had. Since 20082. Bills and there's you know. This is one of the few issues in Washington where their strong bipartisan sport where Liberal Democrats conservative Republican. You know a short range tried to do something about there's. Not for the liberals on the controlled house they tried to pass something called the -- and supported by a report. Including the most conservative members of congress that would have required. The electric power industry that would let the legal court -- necessary for the US Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. Can make the electric power industry partner -- And passed quickly book report in what the senate. And the electric power industry they -- powerful lobby called -- I mean people themselves there was one senator and that person bottle bill up and kept it from coming out -- vote. Now the Republicans controlled house and the Democrats have been completely behind that and supporting the Republican. Project which is called -- But again. The Republican bills also bottles. And made it just the one of these wars stories about Opel and Washington as. We're in full lobbyists. You know armed with lawyers in deep pocket. You know can can basically worked the system to prevent. Can prevent us from protecting lights of 300 to 300 million Americans who might character in the the president for his part has. Have an executive order that -- encouraged. You know. States. That the federal agencies and industry to work together try to protect the -- Deal. The -- the fundamental problem is. Electric power industry. It is one entity there's 3000 looked police in the country and they're all mostly private sector. Entity exists in the nineteen regulatory environments. Other there is no part of the federal government. That can order to protect the grid. That's what the issue -- agree that were popular and create a legal forties. So that US Federal Energy Regulatory Commission could basically say you shall protect Rick this is too important to national security issue you gotta do it. But there they're sloppy and -- and are expected to block. I -- a Tea Party Republicans shall I do not believe in big government. You know I don't believe in. Successor government regulation any more than is necessary. But it is one of those problems like we do have government when it comes to public safety and national security issues this is legit number will government should be. And everybody left and right read about that but we happen to Washington so broken we haven't been able to. We haven't been able to get legislation or executive or out of the system to protect her people. You bet why is that well doctor Graham. Who was president break incisive boxer at -- and chair of the European Commission was asked that question by the congress in 2008. Why hasn't industry -- about it old tactics all the assets from these threats. And doctor Graham said. It was a times like these that that he wished that instead of -- degree in electrical engineering that he had a degree in abnormal psychology at. It is it is hard to understand how even the industry why would -- not voluntarily under fixed with the threat as just. Do what's necessary to protect their own assets current interest. It's historically it is strange that you look back. You know you look at the zeppelin industry -- the situation reminds me very much simpler and industry in the 1920s and thirties. You know -- they had him that it would not flammable. And that they they could have -- -- industry -- people didn't that it and so -- -- still be around today if they had done that. But they. Told -- -- -- told governments that know they they can manage our country I can distribute perfectly safe you know they know what they're doing. And the Hindenburg resulted in the destroy the whole apple industry -- that many people. When Obama mentioned doctor Graham you're talking about William -- yeah. Program right before we -- took a break. I had a -- jumping from the Graham's commission. Submitted the hardening of the -- -- the critical infrastructures. At between ten to twenty billion dollars over twenty years is that a fair assessment. Actually that is saw an incorrect that number and I know where you putt putt that's so like will move -- a good man it's all of these per. And that appeared in the article as -- -- I I broke to correct like yesterday and during the break. He wrote back -- -- any -- by the way we need to cost correction twenty billion to bill in my article on the web site. He he actually. -- yet exactly two billion. All for a period of three fight nears the protected national. But there in that area question. Went up first heard about -- my thought because in the world bigger soon. Is the reason we have heard about -- -- -- to be a big important that the utility industry to government. This this was just. Gotten one better prices. Theories thinking. That direction of reps in conspiracy. -- and -- But there are -- the military. Has spent hundreds of million dollars hardening its own infrastructure against an -- And they steal him. 9%. -- they used from this so don't you agree. So you're talking about two billion dollars about to make this problem goes way and go to show next week on the amount of equipment. Instructors were left behind an Afghanistan and there are in the billions and billions tens of billions of dollars. Mean nobody. Would. -- ordered the utilities. There's been two and two billion war. Go printed out of every Democrat that comes on that says Arlen. You don't function and keynesian theory. We have -- ability to -- monies so consequently did that is not the big problem. -- good to print the slightly ordered that it be. Well we can't order. The electric. Utilities to protect themselves unfortunately now I'll have to. -- I thought that's what the blue -- boards. Yeah that it shield active in the two were passed in law of the land -- we do it. Well but unfortunately. They electric power lobby has managed to keep bill bottled up. So that we don't have the legal authority ordered them to protect its -- On the off. So even if you predict the morning and and in terms that give you a sense of how small it is relative to and we spend two billion dollars. Every year in foreign aid to Pakistan. Three year two billion Pakistan. You'd think that we would be willing to spend that much and the congress that will -- candidate if that -- out -- industry with people -- take advantage but. You know to protect 90% of the American people would carriage and then if he captured it. I don't blame you what you're what's yours you know four. The global the enormous skepticism you must have -- about the latest threat. You know. There has had been ceremonial hoaxes like well I consider global warming to be an example want they're not scientifically -- the -- yet he has. That's why we have congressional commissions by the way you know that was never congressional commission until -- like global warming. If those people who are concerned about in the administration wants to engage in these kind of activities that are transform the way. You know we fuel our economy and all the rest of the nation African commercial commission and go to the process provided for. By the founders little pocket in -- body of congress establish. Handled record experts. Who can get together study the problem. And then you'll have you can have confidence in the judgment that comes out of that. The military I mean we got the speculators. You know we know we -- real. We've seen it nuclear tests used historical current equipment with that the commissioner which answer museum -- simulators. We're all kinds of modern electronics in there and you know and that's been tried that will be -- -- And we can decide to actually MP as I mentioned before it's -- -- electric rich. Relatively normal. I've got to take a break for the news hopefully I can keep you for another twenty minutes or so that are okay sure all right do and when we come back. For those soliciting -- urges they -- this because one campers heard about that in particular. -- doctor trial and for very short period time and I think there her -- or read about it the wrong. Bad week to hear this impede potential attack nuclear attack from -- from Pakistan from North Korea. And I dismissed. When I first heard it because to me it was -- mad Akron and a mutually assured destruction never gonna happen because. North Korea knows -- wiped them off the map but in -- -- his story about a ship. That have a lot of this equipment on it and I think Tuesday and will -- apply it or -- wrong when we come back. That their could be attacked all of which we would not know who did it. Would come right back we called the think tank Garland -- and oblivious to return. When. -- wrote about and heard about electrode of electro magnetic poles attempts -- alms. Opting out of our electrical grid system. It was very very skeptical -- on and then a picked up this article MP -- and address. Threat to or electrical grid. And it's said the it is security could collectors electrical power -- and other critical infrastructures. Including communications transportation banking finance food and water. Here in America. The number of the testimony of doctor Peter Vincent -- executive director task force on national and Homeland Security. Well for the US Federal Energy Regulatory Commission technical conference on geo magnetic disturbances. To our bulk power system. And one of the -- said the government report concludes that -- could be an abrupt into as many as. 130. Million Americans. For several years. To reduce joining as we've been talking to him. -- computer -- Over the -- -- power and I think doctor you mentioned. That to solve this problem it's only about two million in the realm of about two billion dollars. But this is something that have occurred it would be devastating for the country -- Yes that's correct the integration in this play Federer. Estimated that given our current state order vulnerability to natural are nuclear -- support of these things happened today. That that within a year you know we lose in 90% of our population. Two starvation disease and societal collapse. And the ethical and cost. Two billion dollars or less to protect against. That -- 2004. I mean excuse me 2008 and the subsequent five years you know we've continued to look at how we bring the cost. You know and and there are some plans out there that could cost -- little 500 million dollars to protect protect secrets depended on the technology -- and they used how report you want the protection so it's not a question of money you know and it's not a question that the technology. You know we know for fifteen years protect against the because that you. You know the Department of Defense spent billions of dollars developing the technologies which are things like dirty cages surgery registers and blocking devices. Protected the spill fortunately the thing that keeping a ball purple is politics. As few people in Washington. When I listen to talk to via corner agrees science meeting. You mention North Korea. And in the articles are -- sites over the including North Korea has been working on super MP weapon -- dictator more. And again and read these things let's do this just mutually assured destruction may head just like with Russia everybody's got to nobody's gonna use -- because if you do. What -- reusing forward you're gonna lose a breeze enclosure gonna get destroyed two but I think it's a -- on. I think you described a scenario where this might happen and we wouldn't really be sure of who did it right. Yes that's correct there's there's two scenarios for keeping your fingerprints -- Albanians attacked. That's one of the things that makes -- so attractive to that guys like Iran North Korea by the way. That you can Ki attack if you use your weapons Kabat. -- it's a way of attacking the United States. -- you all the way abusing the single nuclear weapon where you could basically win the war completely destroy the United States and get away with that. Potentially without retaliation. One way. One of the commission's nightmare scenario. Was that you don't put a short range or medium range missile armed with a nuclear war had. Freighter in the -- -- freighter and then. Go walk the coast of the united state ideal place actually would be off the bullet which is where you're located someplace down there because from that part. Open to the -- Oh certainly. Certainly although I prefer open in north like oh -- the Washington area and is my brother a friend bill or an -- -- but he could locate it and let beautiful city poured on me and Brooke keep going -- Sure. Because from that area from that location -- top three. You know which they're medium range missile can reach the center of United States the altitude of 400 kilometers that would need. -- law to put it need a peace deal out -- whole United States because the war and it goes off high altitude in overstates. There's no bulb debris left over to collect the Balkans you know that the small fragments that are there are lost and others based. And because the missiles launched the missile it's destroyed by the blast. And and because -- large freighter well there are tens of thousands of -- constantly operating. You know likelihood that we could find the -- one especially at. -- -- -- destroyers are communications that our national technical means to me reconnaissance hardly likely. So you could you know you could do and at the MP attack destroy the United States and potentially. Keep your fingerprints also and just get away with it. Article on -- it's up to broker would catapult for another break when we come up keep that thought. We're thinking about something called -- electoral magnetic pulse. And its potential of all the countries that. It's been reported Europe working on the weapon they have the weapon. To deliver -- at about 30000 kilometers. And deliberate and merchant ship and we never know who does it to its. But in the meantime it's not so -- -- entire electrical system in this country. And it's conspiracy theories. You do you -- -- on this like -- and a little bit. You funded all of the congressional record. You -- and military publications are talking about this hardening their sides because they're truly believe this is a threat. -- -- 90%. Of the military. Structure in the NC -- -- with the use. Come from the the private in public electrical grid. Seems to be a huge problem that you know anything about and those that do. You -- doing anything about common. If you're like me who never heard of that EMT. Electromagnetic. Halts it can come and a bomb for. Solar -- and do the same thing. And basically if someone with a -- North Korea Iran Pakistan all of which have been reported. To be working on such a bald or have so to bomb. A reporter opera I'm thirty kilometers above the united states of -- they merchant ships in the Gulf of Mexico which are many many merchant ships. It would conceivably knock out our electrical grids and obviously that would be. Problem for a American civilization. And that merchant ship might get a -- and we may never know whom to respond. To. And one of those it's been in the -- -- -- of trying to educate the public on this and get something about it. But computer prize with the its executive rector. Of the tenth sports on national and Homeland Security contrition would -- to report. Doctor are there any other delivery system other than the merchant both of you talk. Yes there is up. There's -- and other techniques it was infected by the by the Russians during the Cold War. -- called fractional -- apartment just. It's basically space launch vehicle really nice to be -- but as disguised as a peaceful space launch vehicle and what it would. Do is it would orbit satellite over the South Pole. And that would -- from the south. But it would -- -- -- -- Antarctica and come from the south to approach United States that direction because -- lying to the self. We don't have any. Missile interceptors or ballistic missile early warning raiders face in that direction we've always expected in nuclear -- coupled with -- nor apple. And soul but we wouldn't even see the thing coming. And in December. And in the idea that you walk at this nuclear straddle it could be settle the but the crew discussed his satellite that goal off the water reaches the center of the United States you detonated it high altitude and there you go look at your country a -- attack. The classes everything. And in December. What twelve the north Koreans are exercised exactly as they didn't want to so called space launch vehicle and demonstrated the capability to orbit satellites go across the South Pole. Coming up toward the United States from south. And they -- at that satellite at the optimum altitude reporting that he LP field down overall 48 United States. The north Koreans are working with you brought in by the way Iran has been at all three of the North Korean nuclear tests. And the -- North Korean nuclear -- looked very much like super you know he weapons that were concerned about because it's again Marie generators and memories that make. They the MP effect not a big explosion. And doll all of the -- Korean nuclear -- -- them have had these remote you'll. But you know what they put out this sizzling sound of the seismic signal that looks like Emery is -- the law. A lot in some exercise three of these. So call the launch vehicles sending satellites crossed the pole on the -- -- approaching us. From this out where we have no interceptors in noble was warming warning. Rape arson so we wouldn't even see the thing comic and anybody could've sought could have done and done -- -- -- way. I'll. And so what that is another way of community of attack and keeping your keeping your fingerprints off of that. All right dude -- -- and congressional committees or have you been terrified before congress. And so you you know Raymond. You written books on this wearing. When you. Global for the military go before the congress -- for the American people. And you explain this debate just -- issue is a conspiracy nut and there's nothing to business. During all of them members say do you own a -- -- A flexible. Infect all of them do mean we don't have in in Washington. Up. Except for a handful people's been bought. By that -- that the electric sloppy and -- -- read that it's a real threat but we can't get them make the rightful. You know the congress takes is very seriously is that it was unanimous support the predict -- back. The president has science advisor. Actually wrote an article in twenty that was published in the New York Times called. Celestial storm warnings that was where warning about the peace threat from the start and the president has signed an executive orders but again he he doesn't have the legal -- be able to force the electric. Utilities to protect themselves. The main thing I when I talked to -- so you know. I I I labored in Washington. Try to get them to do the right thing and they wanna do the right thing Washington is just so broken. That it can't seem to accomplish anything even putting out. You know healthcare -- -- the and or foreign policy is obviously as the catastrophe. Yeah. Duct probably run out of time unfortunately I've really appreciate -- giving its and Tara our. After -- breeding -- on this interviewing you'd twice looking at videotapes. I'm bide their seriousness of this in the -- of this. Hopefully we will have you back on the leader Dave on the ball or purport I think it is so big we issued continued. To get educated concern thank you so much for being with -- you have a great day. It. As a governor bill biggest celebrity is amoral 53. Epidemic Garland Robinette and this is the thing. Well I think you're gonna want to grounds for the angelenos who is something about it. Security. Expert for three of the wealthiest families owner of the board would -- It's a book that's been written by a man named Robert -- -- he was an LAPD cop for like 1516 years. And then it became a security guard for these three very wealthy families. Over a long period of time and it's just his insights into the life they leave we can imagine it but his day today is split. It's worth the listen it's really worth the -- No he is not something -- -- a book writer and he's doing them. And hasn't been knocked off for running a book which is dead. Overall look at talk about. If something very important the number one killer of women always think of breast cancer an awful things. It's heart disease and we're gonna -- three women. 23 years old 43 years all fifty years old heart disease. And Angela -- show is covered of that zone goal way.