Nov 19, 2013|
Garland talks with Marjorie Esman of the ACLU about whether high fines make it impossible for poor people to extricate themselves from the justice system.
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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
Welcome back to -- to backward on in a number of throws about American justices some orange open referred to the American injustices. And so I'm always. In the in his -- -- -- doing other criminal Joseph says some tension line. And meeting these cotton fields and and then it's this story that says the new debtors prisons. And for -- storybook about a -- an album. They're driving with the expired license that they were -- and they couldn't -- payable on the hundreds of two books each. So their fleets of probation and there's something never -- supervision of the national elections. Services. And what -- three deaths did blues -- and Puerto -- dollars monthly service fees. On the -- that they couldn't for Wednesday. -- the -- and in the -- charged with more parties are. Pleased rose to do them at their home. Threaten them with a razor told their children would be placed in state prison and taken a mean -- here and it would go to prison. -- -- -- not a -- Roland to brought 900 dollars. To the tree and it. And everything Reid says such as distinct from Iran and moves to punish or did tour. There in the Islamic long arms from the cause of the system that pushes them. And it's that. And of that that certainly -- a look today as a skimmed through so they -- us. Courts in Orleans our route to offered dependence the choice of thirty years in prison. Hundred dollars in pipelines. In the city in the period -- her 22 dollars per day. -- -- and made sevens. And the federal appellate court of the circuit that includes. Amounts that -- and sentences. Either legal. Sort of -- -- like New Orleans. Involve Williams in -- Then a look at impound up and it's Leo so called in Bora in the the runs America's -- that are present. And -- -- -- -- want to know more about this. And we have Marjorie announcement executive director of CO you'd Jordan as an order -- can be sure appreciate all. All it. Judicial. Reactions services. And what that's about -- read about it but I'm still little confuses. Purposes. Because it purposes a little confusing to exploit it and -- -- -- and I think that you stated there. Mean the idea is. To put the burden of payment for the criminal justice system on the backs of the people who are sucked into it. Hand. -- that very often because people -- and he said to Ford paid a fine. Obviously they can put their fine and also it would pay for the -- And remember we'd call me. Users -- other government services. Pay me for the services we don't make you know capital crime victims think the prosecution and arguably be totally inappropriate because -- victims they. But we deal may anybody -- you know calls the police for anything paid for the police Sydney university. Common. We bill and the actually pay taxes is to get covered these these. And -- makes somebody paid the cost. Of a sit down debt. There -- only in it because they can't afford it in the first place because that these women and there are many people like that had been able to get paid a fine it would have been. Mr. Agassi. Into the final game. You know it kind of insult on injury and it makes it impossible for people to extricate themselves from the. All right go I have to admit the first wrote about the only solution in and put this in Guatemala talked -- about them back from our first rate. In the article up -- -- bureau organization its -- you found that he's in. Colbert. Curtains of the operating budget. Of New Orleans parish criminal court in Louisiana. So this is not a little bitty issue. That is that's a huge issue and we should all whether we agree with don't agree with better understand. We can do run up to that stubborn audio 170 and 153 yeah. Poll that we conducted every day in conjunction with the approach one earned over rubio. As this question. You think his presence still exist 60% of you say yeah it's. I'm surprised. I had no idea that that's not the absolute. Label but it certainly sure looked like the definition is something called. Judicial corrections services. If you want to review in detail about this go to via economist. And the title is in new -- prison. We have. Marjorie adjustment executive director of the field to -- you know on because of I read the economist. Article. A brand across the -- that says. -- -- -- -- found that used in Poland -- two thirds of the operating budget or -- or inspired criminal court in Louisiana. Is that right two thirds. Pretty accurate and one of the really scary things about that is. Our public defenders are paid out of court fees. Which essentially means that. If you lose you paid he would -- -- layers and layers if they win you know dictate that -- if you know create a totally perverse incentive. Group and it did for -- for those that are just joined. Recounted to -- aboard the pieces in the economist where there. Mentioned an Alabama cover of Koppel driving with expired license. Got a 150 dollar -- couldn't couldn't reported. They're issue goes over four supervision by the judicial corrections services. And they end up being threatened. Would take Izard told there. Children to go into state care and they're going to prison if they can't say not only be expired license that people but the that he. Of Jaycee it's on top of that and it was only after Roland you've got together and put together. 900 books that they -- -- -- from view and the loser kids. Well according to this two thirds of the operating budget Orleans criminal court Orleans parish criminal court. Is based on that type scenario. Now martyrs is that in exaggeration. No that's not an exaggeration. An end and in addition to that I mean that. -- booed pardon me for an brookdale and what to make sure I got this so port two thirds of our budget. If we don't have poor people. -- Kim. -- -- That we wars than to pay in some form -- fashion. Two thirds of -- budgets and trump. Pretty much. Pretty much. And that -- -- people in break the law whether it's driving with an expired and that there you know whatever it is. -- It's appropriate for society the content Leon of course. You know we have to force things like that their safety reasons why protect your licenses and all that's. There is no -- To escalate the mines and -- -- incarcerate people for being too port paint them. You know what incarcerated. All sorts of things happen you know if you if you look at thirty days actually because Q2 report paid. He'll likely -- you cannot be pushed to report to work for that period of time and even if you don't you cannot lose the income. In which case he might be able to pay your rent house in -- case like -- home and all that other consequences for -- And it all essentially. Punishment for being. -- that he could pay if you walk away. Well it may have to -- through the GE CS's. Side. What that city is look without them overseeing that this this -- and people lumping him. Only thirty -- in the view vendors. Comply. But -- there -- services that rises to 70%. So that rises to 70% that would suggest easily two thirds of those that or. Trapped in this actually. -- right and they are in the money. Fine them money because -- It but you know and at what personal hardship. The question should not be whether it's important to have -- like this to collect on the question should be. Whether the system of fines or jail there are appropriate in the first. Because if we had a different system that we wouldn't need private company to essentially like extortion. And could make it harder for for poor people. Key to get out of the system can buy it way out they are all -- If somebody is not dangerous and clearly somebody is simply forgot to new -- and -- is not that does not make the dangerous person. The alternative if somebody maybe come up some cash would be enhanced community that you. There are other ways that we can get people to get a prize for not complying with the law. Was out getting sucked into a system that makes it harder and harder and to get out. It was no more surprised like this Leno was and found -- We've got two major corporations in this country. That run state prisons privately. They've ruined the prisons. And they demand a certain bid count -- think it's 80%. Act. Or the port there a guarantee over twenty year period. Now we're looking at this. Where it's poor people. They can report to pay without erupting their whole life. And two thirds of that is our operating budget in the -- interest criminal court it it seems life. We've got we've got to have climb. Too good to keep the system -- Well it's not much that we got to have crimes he -- and kill it would know -- point it is day. And calling it is don't wait Winnie deal. Mine sent. And it because we can make a distinction we talk about crime when you hate crime -- most people think of violent crime kind of odd that people. And all quietly -- Most people don't think it you know driving with expired license tag is a crime committed maybe tactically because velocity have to do that she didn't do -- broken the law. But most people don't feel threatened by. You know you don't consider -- such person a criminal. And the ball you know everybody forgotten some deadlines a couple of more and you realize that you forgot to get to pretend you know last month and made it you know people forget. That doesn't make you really criminal. Until we have to do is stop. Treating people who can make all the stake as though they are criminals and getting them into the credit for them in the first. Aren't going to let me rephrase an Intel live from wrong because a brilliant prone to understand this. If way of corporations have required it efforts and occupancy and our prisons and it's in their contract and it's over. Twenty year period that would suggest. Their -- is not to cut down. On the mound of people in prison to the contrary. It would suggest they need to keep those numbers up. Yeah of poor people. That can't be minor funds for a minor violations of mall. Paper finds that covers two thirds are brought operating budget in Orly -- remote court system that seems like to me. We've got to have people violating the law to maintain the finances of our system. Then Bettman that canceled and we have a system that's built on punishing people. For minor infractions. So which other sort of penalties might be more appropriate. -- -- -- did this is not in your study and it's subjective question you'd rather not respond police and both Ford Twitter. Routed. Emails. Based. Look at all on and on and on and on. Instantaneous. Communications. We'd never know illness. Okay but today. It goes into a web side he goes out in to all of the social media it goes on radio talk shows. How long can we go without changing our system. Before people become educated enough to lose faith in this us. Well the question and and I think it's important that you think about you know the world it did it. View and the media and social media day inmate in in educating the public on these issues. Because you know chip people who work in in this field well know this but like -- rise net. Technology has lacked information to spread and people. Can -- that he did and other of this day that you have asked about it. Is the whole system that they. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- If that Jack and yet. Think -- day incarcerated in jail while awaiting trial to determine whether you actually guilty what you can chart. It's like you're not -- to sign a couple of days. In Louisiana and they'll pay pay this money -- -- can't -- -- and come back for your trial meanwhile you know he's -- that Japan. Because I decided that the communities not at risk if you're out. Now you have money you can paint. And then you get out and you go back to working you go back here faintly while awaiting trial -- May -- guilty maybe you're not. Paid bring you stay locked out. That would and we have people who are locked up there awaiting trial and you -- anything because -- at a trial -- They're locked up simply because they can't afford to pay day. And again and that downward style you're locked up -- not working so you lose your income please faintly loses that support. He may lose -- your home. And Munis hit many active angle on some kind of public assistance because you're not working to support and so they mean eat fruits and that mean for school one choosing menial kind of thing because you know. You're not there aren't living for and that's -- before being counted. Guilty or or had a chance to prove that guilt and it's only because you can make it. Margaret and a lot of people simply because simple. Which we a couple of hours through the show but like to get you back and get into the Hudson -- pet people. And understand it on -- -- and I appreciated time you have gray Dave thank you for calling. I are -- come right back come we're going to be talking to be your Brennan center of justice center. Talking about something that. I I would submit most of -- certainly never heard of the judicial -- and services. Of some people are calling -- debtor's prisons.