WWL>Topics>>12-10-13 11:10am Garland: on capitalism and the poor

12-10-13 11:10am Garland: on capitalism and the poor

Dec 10, 2013|

Garland talks with author Jason Berry about Pope Francis and his recent comments about consumer capitalism and its effect on the poor.

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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)

That have been going through your reads and where you read. Oh both France's father. Came out with a stinging critique of capitalism. Or he's no different than a couple of other -- that have talked in the -- saying -- -- Within those specifics on and want to do move. What it it has caused a bit of controversy and at least in -- -- and a bit of confusion. And oftentimes when the other Catholic religion of the Pope preached ordinance confused me called the -- Jason Barry. Off the group render unto roamed the secret life of money for the Catholic church and religion writer for a global -- Of foreign affairs web site. Welcome back we sure appreciate it done. Before we get into what is global post of foreign affairs web site. Global -- is about four years old now and it was founded by Charlie sent it the Boston Globe foreign correspondent who. Left and saw the future of reporting on the Internet and there reporters and quite a number of countries. And they cover the globe everything from economics to religion two wars to culture. And I -- a long stint of reporting in Rome last November. On the Vatican investigation of the nuns for. Global post and I went back and covered the conclave that elected Pope Francis. And contribute. You know weekly blog or religion piece of one Carter another. Certain you're going global leaving -- -- and that that's not very. Council which horrible thing to do. -- -- -- -- You know you can live anywhere that there. -- about the world. So true so true. All right let's let's get to the -- let me read just a couple of the bogeys says. -- when he talked about the on equal economies throughout the world about the -- -- all we've done the obamacare and the minimum wage drew both who would choose for. -- one thing is said. Just of the commandment thou shalt not kill so it's a clear limit in order to receive scored the value human life. To that we have to say that was shot now Donald shown not to an economy. The exclusion and inequality. So much in the economy to its your your thoughts on. Well I think you have to see the context to from which he is riding in at a which he's coming. Remember this is the man who has spent all of his wife say the last. Several months. In Latin America. And as they. An archbishop and when aside. He was known as you know defender of the poor he spent a great time. Directing church charitable funds to programs. In the massive stereos the slums and you know he spit -- critic of globalization for some time. And I think when you consider the of this huge gulf between the haves and have nots. In many Latin American countries it's sort of explains. That the framework that deeper to these issues. 02 during a second and next paragraph. He says I can be dead in his. Not a news item in an elderly homeless person dies of exposure. But it is -- in the stock market loses two reports this is a case of exclusion. Jim we continue to stay in -- -- booed throwing away while people are starving this was the case of worldwide in the quality. But I think a bread everything that is said and a lot of the post commentaries. And I can't find anything that he recommends. Abusing them. Well when he went to limit the picture of the island off the coast of Italy. It was actually his first trip -- Pope. And maybe it's such an issue the treatment of the refugees the Italian parliament immediately. Took up the cause. I don't think it's put forth. A plan to restructure the global economy yet equities doing a strike to spotlight. The deep -- in another dimension -- this -- and when you. When you look at this situation and countries like Spain and Greece. Were young people with college degrees. -- simply unemployed. -- it is one dimension. You know international economic crisis and I think he's calling. Four. You know measure of social justice for. The kinds of programs that came with the keynesian economics in the 1930s the new deal and so forth. But -- point is well made he has not. Putting -- the system board agenda. You know. Not -- coming out saying we need an economic stimulus but it will be doing. Is in story. That. Government. After. Exert greater control. Over banking systems and direct. Fun to. To assist people who were on the march. Our Barbara finger at a -- some headlines that say -- princes is it's important and critique. Of capitalism itself. Rome radio would go Jason Berry. He has the author of -- and roll and mr. green light from -- -- -- books should -- money. -- out of church and religion writer pro global post of foreign approved what. We're -- right Becky good question. You get comments Gibbs call 2601. Accepting. Told three and were in the country -- 66 rated nine and zero itself but they text celebrity itself. This is and -- -- and 70 AM 053. It's about to a -- practices are and I didn't have room personal perspective. I know we have been India. Position very long. It is my favorite pro and so forth and a ruling I don't agree with everything. But I really like the fact that he seems to be walking in the everything -- -- executing policy. The worried the world should be -- -- leadership and -- -- and putting them well. -- worth thinking about it and it opens do we reduce and Berry author render and -- his secret life of money put the church. Religion letter for global post of foreign players web -- Jerusalem agreed to another thing from -- -- What many call a critique of capitalism to treat critique of consumerism. He's at some people continued to depend trickled down their roots. Which assumed that economic growth. Encouraged by premarket will inevitably succeed. In bringing about greater justice inclusiveness. In the world. This opinion which has never been confirmed by the facts expresses a crude and naive crushed. And the good news to those wielding economic power and that's sacred centralized working with the prevailing. Economic system. Sounds like he's talking about the and conservative sell the minute work. Already he's I'll talk about the conservative itself and -- it. In this very -- Well what you could also include New York State where Wall Street is located. Look if you look back in 1998 in the Clinton administration. Allowed the go to -- act I believe it's cold you know which -- from the new deal which was basically that. The regulatory mechanism to make sure that we didn't have another Wall Street clash they latitude to go wander. We've we've not. The kind of regulation of capitalism. That we'd had indeed you know the many decades after the depression. And you know by I -- 20072008. When the big collapse in the Great Recession occurred. -- law for a lot of the you know wiser pundits to pinpoint the the -- regulations. I think with the pulpit saying is. I hear. -- me just read. He's saying that. Trickle down economics has not. Proven to be. Sort of rising tide lifts all boats. Situations and I think the facts support what he has sent. I agree with -- -- booted in the majors that I had the show. I didn't -- conservative callers here and there are and they certainly believed in trickle down economics they've heard certainly believed in the premarket. I did -- few callers -- said that or four. Raising the minimum wage even though the majority of American and objective foreign. My my question is. Do the big conservative. Catholic or are bigger -- become the the cafeteria Catholic now where they take what they want to leave the rest. But -- that's that's quite intriguing you know way to put it. I don't know I'm not one who likes to. Take out after. You know people in this context that way. The thing I've always liked about. Church. Is that it's a Big Ten and historically culturally. It is -- to have room for people if you will both sides of the political while. You know James Stewart famously set -- the church here comes everybody. It's true that that Francis is. Saying things that -- sure upset. Certain people who have great wealth and feel that perhaps. And -- way of making money is is being questioned or challenged but. You know and the war on week either. We're finding -- politically and I mean and abroad geopolitical sense. To provide. Economic opportunities. For people who have college education. Or we're gonna see 888 worsening. Devised. And this is not just in the United States but it's certainly happening across Western Europe. I'm not an economist I don't I don't claim they have the political answer but I think what the Pope is doing is rightly racing. Moral questions about. Economic inequality and incorrectly. No one else on the world stage is doing that. And in -- -- one does well to spiritual leaders to religious leaders to -- the tough moral questions -- I think and and that's that's even conservatives and sort of nodded and realize that he has appointed even if he's not. Someone with a Ph.D. in economics. He sees what's going on just dissolve to. The I agree with the -- what is doing and certainly didn't mean and as an attack on columns on what. What it was pointing out is is all world believes could -- catholicism belief here. Saying BQ really conservative matter when it comes from economic when it comes to the premarket. Let me give an example what I'm talking about here's a writer. The road to in which -- good Catholic board start sheltering at the Apollo. It's a -- was well and expensively educated would be Benedict treatments. But -- correction is barely controlled -- so much so that implicit taken and they moved who populate in -- Or in the section of economics in development diplomacy to misunderstand. The very world we live. He claims are berserk slaves to market driven society it would lost touch with the rules of the poor and allowing equality and equality to increased. This being the exact opposite what is really happening out there in the universe that we all in. That that's sort of talk about the needs to be I've talked to so many -- -- -- rooms or. Were out. In particular during Thanksgiving. And it's just -- incomparable disguised in movies these. He's saying things are more outside the agency went too liberal and others geez he's attacking our conservative principles. What happened to be infallibility. Well it's still here and and frankly -- critic of Intel ability because. I mean after studying it and and write about it -- the conclusion that it was really. A principle that was enacted in 1870. Vatican council. Where the Pope was losing political power and wanted you know some. -- leverage and so they gave it to them by a vote. Having said that. What Frances is saying in these recent documents. Comes under the middle of infallibility. If I'm not mistaken the last sort of infallible statement that was made was by John Paul. When he declared that women could not be priests. And cardinal Ratzinger. At the time. You know issued this statement that this was should be considered infallible. Interestingly what apprentice instead he is that the -- the in the interview with the journalists going for Brazil back to Rome over the summer. He was asked about -- ministries and the world that matters or been decided John Paul made his statement. He did not make reference to -- ability but -- said he was not going to. Challenge -- on Paul or fourth even though there's been tremendous. Criticism of that document. Because it's not grounded and scriptural findings according to many of the religion scholars. You know I think what he's doing is trying to shake up that thinking. Of people more comfortable and get us says it is Christians and as Catholics to. Confront the world that it has it is in the try to make it better place. It's not easy to do that when you have that highlighted divisions that especially in this country we have as evidenced in congress and on the evening news. Well that just -- was my belief that I was raised Hasidic Catholic. When muck -- -- -- good of it is that you broke the pope's edited it's true I just figured out what then I'll Bullock. -- come right back -- talk more. Not just about Pia. Pope's recent pronouncement on and Paula the -- and hoping to change in the world number -- the subject to and we got the god dude whose greed and -- -- and Jason Barry he's the author of render -- role in this secret life of money for the Catholic Church. Religion writer for a global post of foreign bidders -- where they go to get the book. They can go on them. Amazon and they can go to any of the local bookstores which I believe are still carry. All right and we're gonna read those subtle -- a couple of times in the upcoming have power and equally at home page at FaceBook and all of attributable pundit there jaw hung in -- if you can hold well welcome to you right after this everybody else comments and questions to basic zero. 187. Of mobile brigade 70 AM 1053. Of them are welcome back to Europe thinking about. Bit of a controversy. Over. Bob Francis. Some of the media. Headlines it is stinging criticism of capitalism hurdle but what he says being excluded. Or so away. This imbalance. As a result of ideology shoes which have been the absolute autonomy of the marketplace. And financial speculation consequently. They reject the right of states charged vigilant for the common good to exercise in the form of control. -- new Turin his first born visible often virtual. Which unilaterally. And relentlessly. Imposes its own laws and rumbled. Through the seclusion. Of those who. We have with the Jason -- He's the author of render -- role and secretly -- money for the that your religion blogger pro global -- Before we go back to borrow money. Multiplicity of questions does bring in some of the call is good job and then -- -- John -- holding on Euro mergers and there. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- You that this hopes soon be walking -- I would I would expect to. Personal. Opposition. And I am curious why he is not moving. The church -- -- -- tremendous well. This horrible all what government should do. -- Yeah that's apparently for our observation. One thing he has done. In. I think this is over the summer. He said that he wanted -- churches in Europe. Used. And he was speaking about the the closure of -- is this is something that's been happening. All over the western. World where you know because of population ships people -- -- the suburbs or cities having empty churches. And financial problems that the church itself -- -- Many of the bishops are faced with what to do with empty empty churches. And he said he wanted to see. Immigrants. People. You know fleeing foreign countries particularly in Italy where they got -- future immigration issue. He wanted to see these churches put -- use. To house and and and service some form of assistance. To refugees and immigrants. Have not yet seen anything in the media on whether that has been done. But that kind of beg the question as our caller just readies -- that is. If you're gonna walk the walk. If you're gonna talk the talk -- you gonna walk the walk and on the question of well he has made some donations to international charities and folks typically do visit. Really doesn't make a great -- news but. You know the larger question that I think the church spaces is. How out of the northern countries the developed countries and the bishops and Catholics in those countries. Provide the financial resources that are increasingly. The channel to developing countries in the self. The and and we talk about these inequality. And and in particular here in America. Where the gap between there and not only report in the Richmond there could and the gap between the poor in the middle right is freaking break business. -- Angela hill showed real adventure of the assessor on he was talking about how many non profit organizations have been buildings multiplicity. Of land option. In and around the city and don't pay any taxes on -- do you see anything where the church if they're gonna move in the direction of helping him to close the gap. Will will start instituting banana trojans. Well what about in the book and what I. Found frankly is that the church is retrenching financially. It is loss staggering amounts of money. Yen recent decades that's not to say that various diocese -- not -- Catholic Charities US day. Is one of the largest and keep our party agencies in this country and whenever. Europe people who were hostile anti Catholics and they take all the money -- the churches I've heard of them -- today. Do you wanna pay more taxes and they look at me. Because you know Catholic Charities US today. Provides a broad range of services to the -- as they subcontractor. To federal and state government now. You know you can you can debate. The politics 01 that it is an economic reality I think the larger question is whether. The church will continue to grow. Demographically. In the western countries that are developing the -- Issues facing this -- It's whether he can bring bring back into the fold the many people who have left and without. Putting too -- spent on this. When you bring people back you bring back there there were all there charitable donations and we're happy. That's not the only reason I don't think he's thinking I gotta get these people back that we can have more money. I mean he's making all sorts of over chores to tried to. You have women feel more included to try and and bring back people who have left. For all kinds of reasons. So it is complicated mix. The economic the moral and spiritual but. As I said earlier there's no one else from the global stage who is saying the things that he's saying. Politicians in prime ministers don't wanna go on these issues. Rubio mountain we're coming right back -- the finger -- about the open is reached and statements concerning. Inequality around the world. About the poor -- give me more poorer and more of them. We're talking to drew some Berry author of render -- -- the secret life of money for the Catholic Church. Religion writer for global post of foreign affairs would come on right. We're thinking about what's over the -- your labeling -- princes is stinging critique of capitalism. Stood helplessly longest very complicated road ought to -- render and -- the secret life of money but the Catholic Church. And religion writer for global flows of foreign appears web site Jason Berry juice and the one more time. Who would -- -- hold on for quite a while building an -- and I appreciated. Thank you protect my culture. I'm not Catholic. But I consider. The -- whoever he may be. Kind of a leading. Spokesman for the Christian coalition. I don't consider myself that's Christian oral split it do you consider what the Pope. Says -- is and important. In the world stage. One thing that I think stern upper part to simulate -- state when he. Turned all the tables in the Jerusalem. Couple little money. He's he's probably more biblical experts and I hear them. I think that. You know created -- quite -- -- influential. The. So do -- doing the same thing does. I think it. Away. Well no I mean. As well and to choose countless time and turned the tables in there and then. Spread the call and so forth and that you know message this is that the time and place right by really the Yankees. It's kind of following he's currently. Well. Support that position in the metaphorical sense. You know he's just decrying. Globalization of the heart. And anesthesia been different I mean these -- As you know they are striking phrases to use and I think Ortiz. Trying to do is get governments and banking systems to take a deep look at the structural inequality. Or so obvious from. You know what we see and the coverage of the world today. Jason hopefully this the pope's quote. Human beings having the central value in nature. They can be reduced economic optics or to the some of their desire. Misses port and needed help. Should we do not live better when we police arrived refuse this year stop giving. Lock ourselves up on our own comforts such alive is nothing less than shall suicides the Pope contends. That individualism and condolences to the requirements of justice. Won't win every dad in and perhaps somewhere you oversimplifying. All I can think of is Marc Rich friends I don't know video and sit on the front porch sipping mint jewel it's a pretty busy people. I worked two jobs to leave drug home and ain't. Raising -- daughter -- wiping builds. If if I wanted to. Get out of my life a whole lot of seclusion. I don't know who would do it went whats he talk and. I think he's talking about. The responsibility of those who have succeeded. To try to make society better place. And girl and I'm not saying that to preach to anybody -- just interpret the words that you purchase thread I think he's trying to. Tricked people into becoming. More involved. You know and in whatever charitable or Philanthropic or. Application await the vacancy. I've met a number of people. -- don't like catholicism. At all and maybe maybe except for a couple water and -- weren't too crazy about. Those who resided in via. Vatican. And -- is they really liked this guy is is this man pulling more people back not just through. Church involves citizen but back to a kinder gentler war. Well. Done is. Strike the imagination. Of the global media and -- His predecessor Benedict did not do. Yeah it's sort of reminiscent of what John Paul was doing in the late 1970s. Our -- in the late 1980. -- when he was speaking now. So defiantly against. You know the Soviet empire and you know he made that famous trip to Poland and -- talked about human freedom. So I think it's been you know thirty year more years since we can't -- Who was truly outspoken. Using if you world the global pulpit that is is to use because of the way the media functions. Late this symbolism. Is those quarters we too but I'm not. I'm a girl living lives and that cardinal I don't need that -- -- from old news cars and I don't know of these are true but effort to. Not her rhetoric about reports that that or suggesting. Oral or suspicious. That the Pope actually goes out incommunicado. Rewards from blow into the surrounding areas to talk to. -- evidence in the. -- did to I don't I don't know whether he's -- think from the Colorado -- Just the other week. He takes seriously his position as bishop of fall. And he went to one of the churches and world and typically when -- in the past have done this -- You know they'll they'll say man they'll meet with people. You know maybe it to our parents he spent four hours. He heard confessions. He met with people individually he gets it -- he did get the service but he spent. An entire afternoon in this one perished. -- You know the fact that he's -- caught in the prisons in and wash the feet of these young prisoners one of whom was. Young Muslim girl. And the fact that he has made to responsibilities. For a society to support such an issue. I think it's all. Of a piece if you will with the new image he is trying to promote for. A Pope who is. You know in the -- with the people who is you know part of the kind of grounded reality of the of the church it's very different from. The recent polls which have that's not to to take anything away from. You know what John Paul or Benedict extraordinary. Intelligence you know these men have their their traits in their. You know ability -- in the world but he has the populist there's no doubt about. Jason group about -- I do at a two minute hour on the Pope. Review what drew an hour or on the thank you so much and again people can go to Amazon.com. For render to -- your book. The secret life from Republican church. And by offers a great Jason -- normally -- -- and documentary producer. -- right double yeah. -- coming subjects inequality in. To win the rich and poor -- growing minimal wage then rolled all into the same social debate. We'll continue to that people would come back in the thing to be obligated seventy numeral five to reopen.