Jan 7, 2014|
Garland talks with Steve Bucci of the Heritage Foundation about whether Edward Snowden is a traitor or a hero.
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Is an independent “select committee” necessary in the investigation of Russian hacking & possible collusion with Trump associates? This hours guest: Max Bergmann - Senior Fellow at Center for American Progress Steve Bucci - Director of the Allison Center for Foreign Policy Studies at the Heritage Foundation
Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
That's our Edwards Snowden. Lot of reports. At the end of last year. Debating whether or not he should be an amnesty reduced sentence allowed compact with the minimum sentence in Auburn on and we thought we'd get the conservatives saw at The Heritage Foundation and then the next FO. Liberal side of the Center for American Progress. There's so we have seen -- breakfasts director. Douglas and Sarah oath and -- for foreign policy studies at parentage and exceed welcomed -- -- What what are your thoughts what are they heard judgment mentioned thoughts or org or thought separate. Conferences. Well my personal probably fairly -- heritage we haven't you even put out. And editorial. -- sweet. And it ended. Up because this is the kind of issues. Our nightly news is. Proper organization. They were very strong on defense and security. Overall a very strong content on constitutional rights and and civil liberty. So that this one Brinkley's it's -- or for conservatives to. The deal. But for me personally and I think most my Alley oops. You know if it is Snowden had taken the steps that would qualify in the whistle blow or lawyer trying to. Categorize them I think we'd be able more sympathetic. I did not do what it was blatantly cancel law. Are they sort of long at all. It is. Oh and his signature or non disclosure. And well those those less important industries greater responsibility. To. -- -- -- And I against interest and Garland just recently member mr. Chenault beta poorly treated. Brazil I believe -- waters. -- will listen you guys didn't amnesty and I can help you out with. Know what America -- Done EU in particular and he was reminded by several news folks that that would. Hopefully the trees and what 400 entries and stature it. Given it to. Journalist and certainly all under trees and there's some. Prayer. So this guy sort of changed his story now says I don't have any more information unit all journalists -- done. So -- and trying to. Quickstep. Trying to change in the nation so I I don't think we should. Allow him back and what you want come back and page to post a loss and please himself in enhances it. Relentlessly campers treatment come back would take a look at the depth and definition. Of whistle -- better understand it on my part. We're -- a bit at Garland Robert oblivion this is double ago celebrity field were applied to read it looks like when a wrong a liberal liberal Duchscherer -- meeting room reduce Drupal world on Snowden. Because there is some talk out there and primarily in the the liberal media. Above allowing so -- to reduce sevenths. Reduce -- it is -- amnesty view all the government. And somebody in the beating suited to -- -- government bureau project more opinion poll. And as people live music who wrote trader and I've said. This is about as conservative state and -- we can possibly yet again -- it's it's convenient and Snowden. Well we did just that is Edwards -- hero or traitor he wrote 78%. Which proves I was totally wrong. And when I've looked -- national polls let's let -- saw about an average of 54%. To about nationwide group. Group talking balls to the conservatives. And liberals as our received YouTube with the director Douglas and Sarah -- and senator. Or foreign policy studies at The Heritage Foundation. Steve. Look to whistleblower definitely -- -- -- of this definition is wrong a person who exposes misconduct alleged dishonest or illegal activity. Are scoring in an organization. Witches. A direct threat to public interest. Would would that. In encompass new. Well it's -- government detonation legal definition goes deeper than. First see the activity out to be done. 21 of these legal or legitimate watched -- -- Individuals organizations. Inspector general. Your boss's. Bosses don't I'm in the wrong to an organizational. Calm but man. Out war in the military you can even go to like Chaplin. Somebody outside -- chain of command or forty. But he's still a legitimate person who had -- -- -- receive. The information that your talking. Up depressed does not come in. And frankly. Even if we accept that definition you gave. The idea that this stuff was illegal. Is very much in debate right now and frankly that the majority of those folks crying. Hold it what the government it was not equally was not unconstitutional. And some people believe is. But I would -- to get what I mean it is not -- declared that. -- one judge can say it could be. Up by almost immediately another judge -- exactly the opposite. So. You know what snow -- -- -- should not given any sort of -- important -- even promise of reduced sentence. Until this goes through the legal. And he wants to come back and trees that illegal music and take chances should be brought in and we should do -- but. This may not be a hero in any way shape or. A long. Ago I've heard on on the anti its -- side. Nobody did news gonna get from people hurt some people killed this -- pulled from three publications last night were ordered a -- words. Heard series Snowden is done profound damage to intelligence operations. But no one has given that -- is the proof. That is disclosures really hurt our nation's security. Have you seen evidence of. Well if nothing else he has revealed to be enemies of our country exactly -- we're doing business. Are giving example that does not snow but. One net short typified. When -- that the first time World Trade Center or bomb. In that trial. The judge finally allowed -- fact that. We had. In. Listening to some of the terrorist cell phone call well up to that point that terrorist organizations around the world ought. Bet agent talk on cell phones because they couldn't be asked could they -- -- -- And the it was revealed that that's not true you -- intercept cell phone calls. So because an immediate drop in the the use of cell phones by these terrorist organizations. So we lost a great ability to track these guys in that. Fairly easy and robust manner and -- have. Contributed -- their ability to do the planning needed to do not let. Now I can't even. Eight example. Regarding the programs that -- will appeal. Weren't we -- in -- and meet specific advantage. But I believe and I think most people with knowledge Intel believes. That invading that island and wore out right. How we do things so all mix. You've had her ups and use them in any they did not at war and it takes away and that we had in trying to stop -- One of the things it's been said about -- he should go on through official channels as you whistle blow world war just trying to room to -- his. Senior officials know what was going on. USA today did an extensive. Interview him. -- -- a trickle former National Security Agency whistle blowers and in here's what they're described the duke three. Spent decades in the operates at the agency does -- ending in managing the very data collection system. Basic. Have been turned against American. When living came convinced the fundamental constitutional rights were violated the complete first of their superiors. Then took federal -- go gators including Justice Department the congress the general oversight committees in final of the news media. And the results of -- well it's never prosecuted. So when people says -- should've gone through -- -- official ranks the lookalike that would make -- much and wouldn't. Well just because it didn't work in previous case we we don't generally you know program whole legal system into the trash. I think you can be in depth with our legal system we wouldn't have much left. I'm not saying that I'm corporate I'm not saying that they're never mistakes I'm not even saying that what. Everything that Indiana State it was perfectly content and and we should just. Blissfully go on without any more investigation. But when you ask the question. Should he be given whistle blower status the answer is no patient and you know. Just because you'll like a Long Island yeah you can. Along our normal. What you're gonna pay a price for. By you know -- some sort of legal action. And lots of Americans used to do that now and and and I can't change what. What schnabel did was the -- He lied to government. He stole material was not used to ask. He took it out and gave it foreign nationals. Into the press and anybody thinks that the Chinese and the Russians didn't get it stopped. They're crazy because as soon as that showed up in Hong Kong I can guarantee Chinese owned. So -- -- evening directly handed to them by taking all part -- -- government and you're open -- Ears materially damaged. The ability -- states to protect its citizens. And as you walk right into -- -- price war. You mean China of women and seized the computer the content. They do not go -- and -- borrow and they can capture them. Any news in the same way you went to China today. Soon you got in the country they would change once. I walked more ball -- -- There's a lot of weight in and out without even without even physically touching the pipes. And I I can guarantee. Bet they didn't act as soon as he got in Hong Kong which you are the people to -- China. And -- Johnson. A little bit different short but I think viewed it -- have some reverberations would Koontz is snowed and of -- three years ago. Well there to have. There was revelation books being written. About a group of people Politico reported three years ago broke into the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Broke the law. They thought that the appeal in conjunction with the Nixon -- doing things to root legally and hurting the American people. They wind and stole everything they could and and they came up with proved that that that was happening surveillance of black student -- water all the way down to -- a letter from the appeal sent anonymously. To reverend Morton Luther king. Saying to him. If you don't. We will exposure extra level of parents if you don't commit suicide. Those are people that broke the law. And I sure wouldn't call them whistle blowers. But in some instances isn't it. Something that you have to break the law with the -- civil rights from where the -- deaths when the beast mode and ordered to give storage tool. I knew you only have that right at Merck which was founded by people we decided to break the law and and break we the country's network of legitimate government over dislike. Not so I'm not saying that no American should ever do. But I think people need to understand. You know in the same way you know when people were were protesting the right. You know. Mohammed Ali fighter. And I'm not no I don't believe in and out war against a arguing in the conscientious -- and so -- -- ago. And he went to jail. Other people ran away. Well you know I mean some respectable Mohammed -- he he broke the law. Because of principal. And paid a price. Other people run away in the nation indeed lauded it as heroes or -- is obeying the law I don't think we should do. Suitable approach should tell him very much wanted to hear both sides of this and Gibson. Very interesting Todd thank you for the -- It's my pleasure thanks for having me on show. Durable goods and Steve -- director. Doug goes -- Sara -- -- for foreign policy -- its Heritage Foundation and the conservatives saw it will take a look at the liberal side next the Center for American Progress.