Feb 27, 2014|
Garland talks with Jennifer Pizer of Lambda Legal about whether businesses should be allowed to discriminate against their clientele.
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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
Well of the senate bill was called 1062. And it was panels -- Arizona legislature. It bootable all business owners refuse to serve gays by siding there -- religious beliefs the business owners it's. The governor. Has bleed through that bill and -- not -- place. It what are -- businesses and individuals to discriminate. Against customers on bridges rounds. And service. Little things began -- -- chamber of commerce came Al at a against it American Airlines against the apple. That going to build a big plan and a result. Made sounds like -- -- cancel it if this was approved. Even Arizona Senator John McCain said the entire business community. Is galvanized and -- and I've never seen against this legislation. And for a look at the details of what we have jumped replies of with the senior cultural. Director -- -- policy project only and -- legal and for a appreciated and I welcome to the show. It would. What you would cure. Role in the senate you've been involved in the debate -- -- engine in the -- Well I have been involved. I've been working. Quite awhile we see the -- wonderful advocate advocate in. Aaron Brown in particular it's a very strong collections broad collections folks who got together. And -- the leaders. Leaders and others about what they're still actually would do. This is what the panel that was introduced in the legislators. -- -- And we got reaction you know religious liberty as a good and the support and the bill. Without really being prompted to control -- consequences would be. And it rushed to the legislature as well. Similar actually into what we have just seen in in Mississippi and Georgia. Legislators -- in this kind of directly action without legal now and so I I had a chance to work -- -- -- And number of other. -- lawyer you know -- for people like a party sometimes we knew it. It really helped plan the community really stepped up once they are prompted to what it would mean costs that was imposed. The bird that was imposed in particular because how many its content through. To believed to recognize. That discrimination console to that it is disruptive and because content is to lose good people. The utility companies to that there are. These. Would be there are impacted by legislation. And and the conversation really shifted much practical. Serious look. The legislation away from. You know kind of in general you know respective religion which are important but -- to the nitty gritty and probably will actually do. Yeah if you don't mind let let me take a long time ago I want -- -- Bob roll to blues charts don't buy it from -- Anderson -- true on this issue problems but he was -- -- Arizona senator impacted -- Symmetry of the running for governor and Anderson encapsulated. Questions that I but I think you put him -- that way let's listen there's some won't take long cut number one mark. Hold on borrowed some more moment we're looking for it's if we can. -- understand under the your law under this law if I'm not Catholic loan officer saying a bank and I don't like the idea of loaning money to a divorced woman -- Jesus spoke against divorce very strongly. Or I don't want a loan money to an unwed mother you know she might be. You know able to have to pay me back is a loan officer I just don't it's against my religious belief my religious belief is sincere. Under your law I can refuse to do business with a unwed mother or divorced woman. Correct with all due respect sir I did I don't know of anybody in Arizona that would discriminate against a fellow human being. Okay that betting -- a limited number of questions via. Born when Anderson says you're under other broad religious beliefs with debris. Well on the web mothers where there be whatever I could deny service. But in Arizona. There was no room wall. Bad. Banned discrimination was terrible -- -- -- always grown up front -- towards. Somebody could discriminated. And it would have been against the law. -- -- You put your finger right on one of them are metal some aspects of their. Very serious conversation going on in Arizona about the heat for protection against discrimination. Our western office which is located in our financial and I am. We we receive over 400 calls. To our legal help desk for a lesbian gay men bisexuals and transgender people people -- HIV. Who have been discriminated against and and content they don't have protection plan now. There are some local ordinances in those conversations are starting an incredibly important and it is illiterate. What are. -- protections people wouldn't have -- that the local ordinances but at this level which is where you here again sure more meaningful. Protections that everybody should be treated fairly work for example. And that does not have a protection yet so. And the like -- preempt an effort to create exemptions. To permit discrimination. Foreigners even. Was -- discrimination protection even exist and an early in the week. A very important effort that it has the gun and nondiscrimination. Building and introduced I hope your listeners are aware of that and educate themselves about it because. Discrimination really makes it impossible for people would be treated fairly and you know this -- Tried central idea in in America at this point I'm. I think what we find these religions bills is that the first question ought to be what problems that you -- all year. This is what happened in the congress and number of years ago there was a suggestion for a broad. Religious liberty bell and then land and members of congress -- ask okay so what's the problem. The the only problems as -- -- -- -- things about local zoning and current. And -- and writing much narrower bill to deal with those particular interest without. Without unintentionally. Lead in the -- a lot of people's right to participate as equal society. It's certainly different than the Jim Crow laws were worried. That I black service based on biblical beliefs mixed race marriages -- we ought to based on biblical beliefs visits and different. -- I mean of course it's different in the history of slavery. Is uniquely pollen -- interest and admirable. And yet that legal problem. It really is the things. The here at one person's religion. Should be an excuse to impose beliefs on other people -- to exclude other people. You know the country was founded on the idea of religious liberty advocates described by the proponents of these bills -- -- you know. It's the first freedom and therefore religious believers should be able to do whatever they want them out of the consequent. Consequent to other people. Via ambulance. Everybody should be pretty much be free to believe. At least -- believe and to worship. But not particularly from other people if we allow religion to be used in -- way that. -- inflict harm on purposefully from our people and only have to conflict and that. You know -- -- Mary interest -- -- the patent historical parallel to the Jim Crow laws. You know Andy Andy and religious strife that we had used directly on point and we need to learn from that. That it -- not repeat that mistake. And that they. Religion absolutely was used to justify refusing to hire African Americans and then act of Virginia court decision. Upholding Carlyle. Still like an interracial marriage that was written in religious terms are -- sitting judge. Who said. You know it's it's -- the lord intended direction to it would go around different continents. Illegal now so we need to learn from. And not and not repeat that mistake yeah. There a particular social problems of course a little bit different but the legal -- would be the same and we not technically cannot repeat. Jennifer a -- Madrid expertise for at least ten more minutes but monitored breaks they would make criminal right bank governor of the big celebrity AM and one of five to read at. We're -- Nevada -- total legislative bill that was approved. And basically he it would sell up to -- -- social owners refuse to serve gays. By citing the business owners religious beliefs. Arizona governor beat children after the the business community came unglued including the political community including. On the birds senators have voted for the bill went to the government said please -- Better understand this we go to victory entered juniper Five Boroughs and council director wall policy project land the legal. Jennifer strange question on my part but it but it occurred to me when it's listening to this debate. Say the governor had not be towards. Let's say -- law that said in the Arizona business owner. Would have the white. To refuse me because that was Gary. Because of their religious holy all right I -- gay friends. That you can tell Greg. So where they needed G on their sure when they walked -- I I know when religious people. Who who would not want to serve certain people let's say Jews. Do they need a goal which are. On there sure when the walked it. Some -- that question. Retail outlook that didn't believe Muslims. They didn't share their believes that felt like they would try to -- terror report the the Christian beliefs. What I have to Wear an interim. And -- and a fumble on a dignified. People. That that -- -- true religious beliefs. Well you have put your finger right on the really be part of the problem illegally. When we as a society. Goes down the path of validating the idea. That that people's views about other groups of people should allow them to refuse to -- -- other people. If you will and in the commercial space. You know there's this basic idea early years those. Who don't learn from history you're destined to repeat it and I would say as a Jewish Americans you know the example that you a year of but gold star on the June. That triangle effects to people ought to be gay I anarchy in Germany. And you know it sort of it can be one step down past. And we went core idea is. That we have a society that's committed to the principle that everybody gets to protester -- and you're running a business that it needs to be open to everybody at. That does not need that your own private social club that don't everybody -- your church -- you know religious association. Those of private spaces that are organized for the purpose of having. Intimate relationships and sharing ideas -- worship together. Lot of store. Is not the thing that church. And the confusion between. Commercial activity. And worship activity that -- in I think it's the kind of thing that most of us. Can readily acknowledge though that really different things we need to have different rules. You know I is back at it and as somebody who doesn't have as many. And big family because you look at their country pitcher pitches I take it pretty seriously and we. We think about history and and the reality that. Bet that. That aren't prepared because. An awful lot of really good people. Didn't see where that actually eating and didn't stand up and stop it landed it was possible to stop and actually get why so many. So many Americans are vigilant in a way you know. That that we haven't -- history and things have to learn from the idea that even -- traditions to different religious beliefs -- different. There have to be a -- willingness to interact with each other. Or are we end up in the -- and the problem and in alphabetical I think. Arizona became central -- to this issue. With they've backlash economic backlash and backlash about the anti immigrant ballot integrity a couple of years ago. And and the state came to see that they this sort of reactionary. Proposal. Invited a lot of problems for exactly and -- an important part of the problem what you're describing what. How do you know. Whether or somebody who had -- in the looks like my inaction can. It is here legally or not it invites. Collective. It is selected treatments such enforcement and the solution -- can readily be true about. Say baker said it down and determined not to archaic social ex couple. Absolutely looking at all that although the customers that come in with with an iron and it is just the person -- heterosexual. Teens. -- I wonder stayed in double -- I want to whether they're going to happen interest rates went in which I disapprove. You know it you know it. It just takes them. We would call this big thing because we're actually try to load could fielders I've -- knows what I believe it and also reliant on police and the trees and their -- of the same rights that are -- does with that said. Those that argue with the other side gave a couple of examples so listen to this morning. And he said if you have a path of its Christian. Being asked to pro war poster there should be able to say. It together jurors delicatessen or as abroad pork sandwiches on Saturday wedding they should have the right to say. And that he said is what this -- What would your. Well at the basic day in snack -- -- -- example. I'll be the issue is is not whether they're Jewish deli is is forced to make -- which -- or can achieve that matter. -- delegates to decide what to Delhi want what kind of protest to cook and issue is it to Delhi is making that remarkable -- Deli -- can Shuster who that is well. Saying -- sell to people who are sufficiently like a box we're not -- count Arabs and Muslims. We're not gonna shell two women don't -- their -- covered in that require way. In any any number of you know eat eat if you factor is. 88 march and board personal and professional services firm kind. Decide what they want to go in what what -- I want shell oil and produce. But not Wear well and customer. -- there for the -- got the right to come into the dalliance say anxious that you make me a pork sandwich and they don't have pork you know. We don't court angle if you want port. -- -- but -- say. You know. Tell me what else you're going to do under arrested Saturday and I'll decide whether to tell you my -- also based on my view you can stand -- it. -- -- If you're getting whose column and suits were jaws can -- have you on the issue. Jennifer thank you so much and after the south here's what I believe cannot come live in Arizona. I think we see him on the corner I hope. I think at that point demonstration. Actually -- an. Midterm Jennifer I appreciate the driver in my Treo. Our cover of the actual talk about Louisiana there is legislation. That is being proposed and the proposed by. So Abrams and it Austin about don't. That would protect all residents from discrimination. And we'll talk about when we come back a little bit.