We're doing the show off in part because of conversation I had with the state trooper a couple of days ago were over. Talking about. Legislators in Baton Rouge considering putting people in that. Or -- when users put him and you open two years or more. And he had he mentioned in passing. Many of the problems that phase one being the middle Leo. Those out of prison those in prison. And and it's sport to little memory and some good things Barbara and the payouts and went back and -- from a look in yours prisons and trio. Now serve as our nation's insane to -- -- we've we use to put them in hospitals. You -- medical care are a member of the media. Reporter. Decades and decades and decades ago that did report out of New York showing horrible conditions. At the middle held institution we called them insane asylum in those days. And they immediately begin showed a lot of them downloadable went to street a lot of manned up and so now. According to the statistics that I act upon. Ten times as many of those. With skills of primitive bi polar -- he has the brain disease username and residing in prisons and county jails then in state hospital so I got this from -- Treatment had been his advocacy center. Neighborly to Saudi couple of days ago that says 356000. Seriously mental. Mentally ill inmates. Compared to 35000. Patients. Being treated him publicly run hospitals who got 35000. Hospitals. 356000. In middle in its immune and injured. But I'd take a break here won't come right back. Call and Robin of with the and will look at details of this. Governor bill -- seventy area -- 53. Last week we had beer and shooting at Fort Hood again. Today we've got twenty student stabbed and Pittsburgh high school. We're fed of course all the mass shootings in the violence and we seem to hear about -- -- -- who's an adult and revealed today. The the the question. I never hear it even pose much -- investigated. If if if I said to somebody. -- was going to stabbed twenty people shoot. Tens of tens of people. The first thing you would say it is. You wouldn't say you know you mentally ill but it seems a -- would raise these questions. -- a blow it up player slid up on this from advocacy center and then of course. In today's media you never know afford to breeding is Greg but they play him. That we've got 356. I don't seriously. Mentally ill inmates. In an -- prisons today. There will get thirty plus thousand. Young -- but it's it and mental health hospital. It it's ten times is Melanie. Of those whose skills -- bi polar. Ideas to bring music whether recall then. In state hospitals. There in state prison. Better understand this real -- Libya expert through doctor Christopher leave you with that. Forensic psychiatrist. Old issue helps alliances that are Doctorow. Welcomed -- short purge huge government. Well thank you for having me and thank you were taken on -- important topics. Well you did or these figures and breathing anywhere near correct is it really -- big problem in the scope. Yeah I -- it figures at. I can't bear iPad that -- you know the experience have been in Britain or in juvenile actions are quite awhile. I do differently fellowship it -- seen adult prisoners who are clearly. Mentally ill. More in criminal. Yet in our system we don't really have a place for people and we closed down hospitals and I don't have a lot of in an -- outpatient cherish it took for the truly mentally only there one you know the present. Dude do you think you're a big percentage of the prison population. -- Debt debt is accepted some like it did ninety. -- he got back in saint juvenile correction might have been hovering around 40% of the it would have some type them at all at. That time he says it -- 8%. But it would not be in reality it as it would be out in -- -- -- Right so that the range of metal and maybe on the edge of that you know it maybe ten. 1520%. Of those kids you know would lead to -- and hey if you mean there and prayed and use that alone it. Yet only strengthen that element in the hospital the day out and -- -- -- -- AA. However -- prisoners question but it is an accurate a medium and I would do during Cold War and you'll other guys that came back with the trauma of going war. And a couple of more violent and and and love to tip toe in the edge of danger. And they went to doctors and they went to treatment centers and they gave them repeal a chemical. And when they took it there and -- violent and no longer wanted to live on the edge of danger. -- their brain chemistry changed right. Well. -- -- three people in prison. Via a dry lips have their brain chemistry changed. -- they're not really who they all their violent from. Mental wouldn't that be a mental ailments. Well and injured in the you know you're you're aimed. Four or pretend I didn't -- include -- be. So and in when you have the combination. A psychiatric element and shut of these. You mean -- cops leave so group to society out there more criminal behavior more violent medical ultimate. And take care of yourself you know our relationship and so. Yeah. Or you can have a primary which these problems and being more likely apartment on the problem and anymore likely to get in a guest of huge issue. Soon so what do you do about that I mean if some law. That's taken a drug that alters their brain chemistry and makes them somebody that they or not makes them. Say temporarily. Men and Leo. And they hurt my family. I have been very hard time and saying to myself rationally. These are mentally. -- people because of chemicals that they've taken and they need treatment rather than jail time. How do we how we get in two -- -- to me looks like. A middle thought pattern we're gonna have to have for the future. A lot of the violence we're seeing is is his mental illness and admit there broader owned by chemistry or born with the -- Well for wine you know -- -- -- bad and reading it. Well you're you're correct -- specifically he took it. And then commit a crime and to build the lead you to -- You know being put it but the problem is this fit in doesn't differentiate. Between who heard those who do better treatment and -- -- those -- just need to go into the sit down and don't really need to carve out. And unfortunately we blocks you know we we sort of -- into one model resident having hold onto models like drug courts in the -- court you know we come at a. Small -- it's actually you know there'll. And again revelers to a reported five states have some form of forced medication is that is that done here and it -- He is is that successful. Well eagle on the extreme right so only if someone you -- Violent to themselves or other G-8 with infertility early ninety's so we don't have the outpatient laws that some a plate is at. And they won't be yet connecting the world is coming from the conclusion. And we need to give more strength to it doesn't have to before that and but it could be forced treatment. -- that are you know frankly delusional war you know psychotic in and could be harmful to the media doesn't make -- allowed them. The under percent of their freedom when it's not Canadian good result -- them king and not again and he could result rather. There is is -- -- do you have to get. Me Ottawa bruises. -- you'd do forced medication within the parameters of the law does not allow. In other states that passed laws where if you repeatedly get admitted to hospital and you're doing and Helio in and out. They met so many people with severe mental illness do. Then the other is their triggers that would our process. But a lot of anger but not here. Aren't. The reason -- has that. The records -- -- say that those that cause physical harm to others or themselves. Better treated -- this force treatment. 47%. Of them. Were were no longer considered dangerous so. There is evidence it worked for it. Yeah and loads of those programs and in Europe deciding that it ends but it doesn't Egypt had to -- even include that and put it would be forced treatment from any of these stations and we're. And what they would treatments are there of the than some -- Oh yeah there aren't talking therapies there's you know that it and -- nutritional therapies either all sort of supportive. Air heated nature you know edit any number and he needed help people. And and extrapolate from them and then he can frankly kind of or people and they -- in shallow these things get better and worse and vote someone in a worst stage. You probably need to hold them even with treatment for whatever sort until either you know batter and -- -- -- just kind. Allowed them to get better but you can't get unleashed them on society. When they're you know that frankly burial. A super congress is considering an act called. They're helping family -- in middle health crisis act and what -- mortar used preserve hospital beds. Make quarter ordered treatment more widespread. Among current number of things but the problem news. Is that a budget shortfall and we just got to off the phone with Stephen Moret. Who election monitors and looked at monitors the finances of Louisiana. And we've got budget problem we're talking about -- faults and cut back right so if we would come up with plans that would take. More mentally ill people out of the prison system put him in the hospital. We have learned to. Local one -- their -- you know corporate hysteria that is for your not necessarily. Much money -- changing. Indian army wives. You can -- many of these people more freedom and given human right now -- but cops. Like. You know you're yet that would take you organizes system and spend more money on something but I'll I'll -- it and it kind of a unspoken thing -- -- -- -- one sort of medicine there right to treatment or other bad. Basically then you know we spend a lot overall -- -- Pennington and about the same. But they truly mentally all the ticket people. Are not getting any better here than anywhere you know 2030 years for the most part and a lot of people who are spending a lot of money on mostly -- -- on Madison for milder on them honest that probably immediately getting it from our primary or actor. And I think we can get a lot of money -- -- lot -- -- don't -- -- we're we're not treating. The most severe people with the -- services they need and about people walking around eighteen. Yeah psychiatric medicine and acting -- literally don't need it that there aren't quite that same money. There there are some -- that suggest it's cheaper to to treat them in the hospital council -- state governments and justice center. They have study that says inmates -- mental disabilities costs three times as much true of other inmates those numbers the open and phone numbers. Growing. Middle Leo makes the -- nearly twice as long and average. Of 112 days compared to 61 days. And the middle Leo they'll have less minute duke put towards bail and pure connections of family and friends will leave government. -- right and they also can't figure out how to navigate. Them should making it. You know early linemen get out that the as a government or that their monthly report that he also -- The intellectuals. Deficiency group ticket thrown into prison at all that need more support in probably really should conduct the -- setting. -- -- -- systems. Changes. Or are coming -- -- slowly in New York. There are considering. Making sure the mentally ill inmates -- Ago or released. That Dave -- they serve their term in the Porsche relieves some. That there are enrolled in Medicaid. Is is at an inch. We eat helped -- so -- have been you'd get your work heat indexes them. Your -- adults who -- in the present just getting treatment. You do everything we can't support and and an all out in the community and treatment. So if you don't give them -- insurance but forty's and Portuguese the -- -- -- -- Haven't figured out and better at people and -- and in -- on. There is there yet we have that problem in Sharjah in the don't have insurance. And then they go out and passer as our. You're -- in these were two minutes and I've got -- screw -- -- high school education. And I get it to if you come to -- with some figures that you can back up. It's pretty easy to understand is gonna cost me more to put him in prison. Then hospital. 11 in my missing. That they're getting. Well. The way this system that I would just say it is -- you know we have such fragmented as well and every piece of it at their own budget with their own speed and our own. And you know not that talks to each other site he can say mine we did you get to -- is working together. We're gonna provide better here in -- do any better or so. I don't you know I can't explain how we've gotten where we are. Might -- but a note indeed better. Do prison system to lose a lot of money you have the prisoners go to a hospital and -- prison. Home state -- -- be -- -- -- you know so that our nine you know -- -- that probably. We had we would save money but they would lose. Well you know -- -- -- mark. Realize that it could it be unions and that whole corporation. -- they and the -- Ehrlich. Tougher laws and that. That's what looked a lot more people in lenient number one in the country and in no country. So we're. We have a lot of people invested interest to -- get the way it'd. And then yeah. You can't. Look at them and not think that people have been stopping change. Although everyone paid for says there kind of you know we're we're we're victims are on catcher now. The good or not seen primary and we're hurting people and block away. Doctor always a pleasure to have real macho thing to put -- -- -- thank -- doctor Chris reportedly being. Forensic psychiatrist. And -- Cumberland actual talk to chrome and it's. We're we're -- conversation today based on a very casual statement by state trooper. I -- a meal of the -- talking about code jail time for heroin users and and -- just in passing. Mention to shoot some hoops -- much of a problem as we have with the mentally you know. And and that sparked something in me that often wondered about we've got a big news national news -- route today. Some kid in Pittsburgh I think schooled by. And nineteen other people. Of course we have them for the latest Fort Hood shooter and inaudible what is. Thought about a question that that the media never seemed so I am. If you got in my opinion stab Warner to people in the pit of passion or anger I got you. Yours your bad person of Brad thing you're gonna pay -- You -- nineteen pursuing. Its or. It is review praise. Your at a military base in Europe -- because she couldn't you -- did leave time to go to your mother's funeral and you shoot some. Crime of passion that you shoot it for ten under fifteen. I -- or you -- easily. If you're getting in the car get -- -- elementary school or kindergarten school and kill children. First question comment or are you crazy but that doesn't seem to be in part of the debate. Of the violence that we seem to visit on a regular basis. So look it up left side pursuing and it was the treatment ad but please send advocacy center of what they -- We've we've played we've closed. What we used to call and sing silent. And and converted to the middle yield to prison they -- Ten times as many of those with schizophrenia bipolar. Acute forms of brain disease. Then in state hospitals. 356000. Seriously -- and Leo in government compared to and 35000. In the -- we use to call insane asylum. -- it is it took him to lead this this is a debate that nobody's had been. And I could be wrong so was turned to BX for three of her doctor George coupled with -- Promotion department of sociology. Moral universe doctor welcomed sure appreciate you calling him yet. Thank you good. Wrong here my putting too much emphasis when when I say what -- these people praise. Well I think we have to be careful I mean there -- you know when you have. You know whether it's. Multiple -- cases in Pittsburg. Or the soldier in Fort Hood -- The question it has to be passed is not so much. Is that behavior. Percent to. Mental illness but was mental illness. Drive being the behavior before it took over. Because you have to I mean these are old. What are schizophrenia. Bipolar. It's I mean there or treat you know their roar symptom protocols that would -- ignore staff. The behavior itself the news is separate it's. You know 222. Outweigh the behavior. At a given time even is. Important to him hard to understand as these cases -- to -- you mentioned. You know that by itself is not a diagnosis. The diagnosis columns. You know whether. -- did -- condition and mental or emotional condition. Exists prior to the behavior. It's so strong and wrong when the first thing out of my mouth is are you crazy. Well I'd you know I -- I think we have to make a distinction okay if that's -- -- I mean a lot that's that's a very common reaction because the behaviors change so out of bounds and show or to comprehend. That it's it's seems that way by. It's. It's it's kinda redundant. Or what. You know what. India philosopher would call apology circular reasoning. By saying I see this behavior and that's one of only indicator of in this case mental illness. Is. It just. You know the initial pure you don't have anything that actually explains the behavior and that's what I'm getting. I got -- -- I think what I was asking we've we don't seem to have the debate. As to. Or these few books because of -- and -- bi polar reward you -- -- ought to -- A -- and right now people are psychotic connectors paranoia -- on -- news conspiring against them. Leave it of those concerns thoughts into their minds experience auditory visual hallucinations. Command hallucinations so forth and so on. That that was my my questions in his. All we skew view of reducing this and while it looked remembrance. Well I think I think the point you hit on the problem that you mentioned earlier that where you were talking about a treatment efficacy so. The the issue with respect to mental illness is that we no longer have the treatment facility treatment protocol whether it's. Inpatient or outpatient community based to treat people and then what happens is. Their behavior. Goes unchecked. -- medicated. There's no therapy. Going on. Eventually let me take our purse for it -- -- more details bulb went -- so now -- I think that's the basic problem -- -- mortar did implies whether or not I'm exaggerating breeding the ball and things. While we just putting the majority of people that are middle years in prisons. With with the the defensive winter term is over we let him out and we shouldn't. WW negated celebrity real moral 53. I borrowed governor bill -- opinion poll today ask you should mentally ill people be hospital. Rather than fields seven in -- and abuse deaths. Were discussing this because huge percentage of are mentally ill or now in the prisons rather than hospital. -- doctor George couple which with the and so criminologists. And long university. And we're joined by reverend Wallace reverend you're wrong would doctor cup which British. Report in government the -- of more scale that aren't. As one network to help the community activists and certainly a lot of community. And now. How key it in mold problem -- each. Out of it because it exposed. And certainly that in history and our community. Projects. Other acute seen enormous a lot of things murderer. Calmed things drug use and probably score slam and they -- abuse what barber. Scissors and -- -- both of and I'm wondering. Is it. -- -- Well there's something out atmosphere. That -- called in so many young people. To use its parliament early eat is a mean and and is so young African and Asia and it's. Just. With the world -- and some -- -- Social thing that you can we. And contentious. Budget the government and our guys in is that he will not let that intervene on -- I would secure that to -- And we seeing more and on problems into African community in its -- because those. Types of abuse in -- Chronic marijuana smokers are possible reasons that submitted an exception that did that that meant and and and -- not so that the people regular at. The net percent of them yes -- You know that some -- through and it's. Red river in England lifted to a -- I -- double there are split. Well all I'll do my -- just I mean your your your right I mean holders to change our own risk factors. Violence in the home violence in the neighbors. The prevalence accessibility. Guns the -- firearms use common. Form. That you use. You know some of the drug involvements. In terms of violence. His ties -- cute drug market itself. In in terms of the year competition. Among dealers war. Of violence between customers. And in dealers. You know the problem. You know we also know. Things that are happening in schools today and quick to pull it. Kids young people out onto the street which means that -- providers. There. And are interacting with over. Drop out shelter. Young people who. And expect older drop out. In all of these things as factors. Or part of the picture it's a complicated picture. As we -- from decades so for sure should personal loss to. To consider. Doctor Miller brewing unit tong Lu -- you from woodlands question for little Alicia us. -- -- but. -- blue Fox News is that. The the -- the problem is middle -- being put in prison when they should be being put in the house. You see any change in that -- reason to change that and if so do you see -- budgets and where that would allow. Well. -- a couple of things one is the reasons. To do it is overwhelming. People. Should be getting treatment kisses a personal and public health issue. And then both because we don't have the facilities. And oh. Financial. Or political will rule to. Have them available in whatever reforms necessary. And as people with various mental illnesses act out. They end up being arrested and then we know once they get into jail and prison the availability of treatment is. Next enough. -- who were run -- I think you answered very quickly when -- -- because of political and financial. -- lack of will lose my gonna be changing anytime soon. Doctor always appreciated time thank you would call. Me governor Bill Gates opening -- and -- of 53 yeah. There are people being murdered in the streets of America in the number of victims who exceed all the wars in US is Paula since 19100. Com bond. And the majority of those deaths are black men. We're gonna talk about that common objects in the feet.