84713. Before nine in a -- -- the media that people it seems to me. Are more willing to talk about their love life. About secrets involving their spouse about their kids then they are about how much they make. You start talking about their money in your dornin has some pretty. Uneasy ground there for a lot of people and we're talking about hate transparency and should everybody know. How much everybody makes. And some of the -- and -- and Fujitsu -- -- Government and public salaries yes private business know otherwise we're one step closer to socialism. And there's this angle on his suit my boss doesn't want his two vice presidents to know that I make more money than them. I also work longer hours than they do and bring huge cost savings in the organization. And Lawler joins us right now distinguished professor of business professor of management and organizations. And director of the center for of that effective organizations. At USC University of Southern California good morning sir and thanks for again not so early. Only -- what does research show what are your thoughts on this in terms of the traditional model where. In pride and enterprise nobody knows what the other one makes or at least not intentionally and and whether that's a good thing or bad thing and how to noted started. -- -- For 200 simple question and answer and so that long barely practiced. As well idiotic professor. Part that's why we have you on -- not an English Canadians. That the log that in practice. Certainly when I grow up and I'm 75. My parents told me never talked about they never talked about their what they were doing and Trevor Charlie you know -- -- the government employees and and I started doing research about fifty years ago -- it's not a new topic for me to have a look at the data from a number of different angles. What effect it has on the individual effective or organization what the societal norms or -- what people are comfortable with the console and but the reality is that today most. So really our public because you've got laws that require that. Sorry -- little people organizations to be public. Union contract make a whole bunch of -- public. Public employees have public. Multiplication and all. It's really vote private companies. It in the middle of the organization in particular where there's secrecy. That's beginning to rose because number generation. Has moved away from this veil of secrecy of the view that it's wrong or maybe even embarrassing them to talk about their. They're number website spill like last or Google and find out what -- our. Both of individuals -- within your organization -- people should be actively contributed to those. Whether it. Give them accurate information of course is somewhat of an unknown question but it certainly a lot of information around. Pirate shirt shows a lot of information and disinformation. People have a long perception. What other people made when you have secrecy about stuff one of the major disruptions of secrecy issues that people. Often the situation worse than it actually -- And you mean that. They think the other members and is -- -- -- out there and done. Absolutely I think what happens if I get a fallen trees I probably quiet. They're resourceful sorry I don't talk about it if Fido large -- increase or have a large part so we're having not directly say. But what do well enough clues refused. To my co workers to make them think that I paid pretty well who don't want embarrassment -- being located at. And -- -- get an idea that everybody's pretty warm but whenever everybody defaults are a lot of people involved in the field. I always wondered about that if it was because people were ashamed. Of what they were make dinner if they were doing well they were afraid somebody would come hit them up for the money. I think they're both of those Obama are our problems to a degree but it is still in our society amateur mechanism. -- the status of steam. But it is that's not -- -- per issue. Doesn't money always correlate to success in terms of in your profession. Well certainly. Organizations would like to tell you there as that they paper performance of the -- and -- -- more and so far what I work. -- simple cute that's great you know that's a very powerful motive. Why don't you let people build out by actually of that. And also well some things -- there we wanna disclose we'd rather not talk about. It -- a public eager to get things straightened out of them we we will consider making things more public. Of course that's what happens if you keep a secret organizations do things that really shouldn't do -- very consistent with their pay policies. There and that therefore they don't wanna make -- public -- practically organization because of the situation with a terrible -- and indefensible pay levels for people. And there's no pressure on the government to correct that because people don't know about. In terms of indefensible. Indefensible pay levels it is secrecy a way to Foster discrimination be it when I don't. Blue and yellow the current pressure around the keep -- public -- Obama administration brought this up. Federal policy at least. But to actually try to make it more general policy and public relations certainly does because this can't be seen and people don't know. But they're being discriminated against or at least don't have that data from forward and so it -- making -- or the class of people minorities women accept your. OK let's -- systematically. But they really don't have the data to go forward and bring action so the idea at least some people's -- as a -- big. There organization leader itself -- -- -- would be empowered to take action when there -- unfairly treated when possible people for -- Professor appreciate -- time in Indian a couple of texts asking about the website we can go to find out who brought or brought sort. I've very good I appreciate and hope we talk to you again.