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7-11 10am Don, Stop and Frisk

Jul 11, 2014|

Following the Bourbon Street shootings and increased violence in the city there are calls for more cops & fewer guns. We may or may not be able to find and afford more cops, but can we effectively limit bad guys carrying guns by instituting a "stop and frisk" policy. NY City says it worked dramatically there and the statistics prove it. Would you agree to be frisked, if you were stopped? Are you willing to sacrifice privacy to save lives? Don says maybe we should STOP & FRISK! He was joined by Dr. George Capowich, Former Cop and Criminologist, Dept. of Sociology at Loyola University and Marjorie Esman, Executive Director of ACLU Louisiana.

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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)

This hour though -- Nelson a really nice things about doing a think tank is yeah makeshift things in when we had suburban street shootings and all this increased violence in the city New Orleans in request we need more police offices in. Requests the National Guard to common fortunately there's going to be some state troopers not the full hundred they ask for -- fifty and how long they're going to be here and -- mean enough certainly that the permanent solution may be in the temporary cents. And I was thinking about well what could we do. On the big problem everybody agrees it is we've got to not enough cops into many guns. Well the more cops we we understand and they're trying to recruit that Tron affording trying to get more cops and that certainly doesn't hurt that that would be a great. But the fewer -- situation. -- you can continue to pass gun control strict gun laws in it in again all you do when there is burdening the law abiding citizens. The basic premise of the whole problem with illegal guns is a criminals and have them and they don't you know they don't care how many laws you passed. They're gonna break each and every one they gonna have been gone and they could care less in fact. I think they actually support gun control. Because that way there is less law abiding citizens. That may be able deter them from committing crimes. So. I'm looking around and you look to New York City. And they have instituted for several is now a stop and risk. Policy. They say in his war dramatically. And has some statistics to prove and albeit. It's been challenged in the courts is being an invasion of privacy but basically what. In fact now I'll tell you what. The definition again at this on Wikipedia with the actual definitions. Stop and -- is -- its its purpose is to remove guns off the street before they used in more series. Oh basically to fix a broken window before the the squad is giving him a -- about this in terms of the -- street shooting. We had to -- is there I'm sure they're gonna have friars. At the very least they were committing a crime by having a concealed weapon without a permit. Had offices. In and I don't frequent the French Quarter at night and urban street men and been in years. But I'm told that you know it's too difficult to pick out who to troublemakers -- all the potential ones carrying -- our homes would be. If the cops had the tools to be able to stop them for reasonable suspicion. Not clause. And frisk him. And find guns on him well number one they take -- it's that's -- that's gone immediately that threat. Then they're charged with a crime of illegally carrying a weapon and if there are -- carrying a weapon. Gone to prison. I see that is a very effective to have seen it work in New York. The downside is in the question we have to ask ourselves or we are ready to give up that privacy. In just the average law abiding person be stopped. And I asked him questions and and Frist. I would -- it. And I'll probably would be -- longer than the average person because I'm very likely to have my weapon with a concealed permit I got to do some explaining and they gonna do a check in -- moment but you know I think that would be worth. Giving up that freedom. To get those guns off so we don't have to hear stories about 21 year old innocent women being shot and killed by. But thugs who have guns and Roman three in doing what they wanna do. I know there's going to be a lot of opposition to that is going to be profiling that comes into it. That's another whole aspect of and they were gonna talk a lot more about it. Are you willing to sacrifice to privacy to save the lives right now 60% of our respondents had yesterday off 40% said no they won't. A few looked to the city of New York to in the two past decades. At a rate of what they call index offense this would be homicide rape robbery aggravated assault burglary auto theft larceny and Austin bad stuff. That has been reduced by 75%. And they've pretty much -- raced from this the city. And those statistics. Say that New York city's more aggressive police work including stop and frisk and I'm sure there's other factors that are resulting in the result in the statistics. But the fact that the city's murder rate last year 414. Murders it's the lowest it's been since the depression. I don't think you can argue that. At least in some part it is helping to work. -- it's just a change in philosophy I don't see any added expense in it at all. And I'm wondering will this work and lawless is joining us to talk about a doctor George apple which and he is a a former lawless police officer also a criminologist and in that department of sociology at -- university George thanks for joining us. Are your walk on the -- Buick. Don't know what as far as stop and frisk policy in New Orleans has it ever been in effect has it ever being considered in what do you think the possibility. Of that being put in and do you agree with me that you think it might help. Drastically stem a lot of these violent crimes and -- it. -- Sure let me let me just correct one thing I -- for a police officer but I wasn't -- -- here in Portland -- it was all century temple floor. Just to. Clear up any confusion about folks who might. Hear me. You know -- Weber. I mean stop and frisk. Has become controversial. Spent a long. -- constitutional -- -- back in the sixties in the police. Do you have the ability to it. How widely it's been implemented this year you know -- the IE simply don't now. But I will say that. You know you'd. I think. Legal issues -- number constitutional issues. And falafel tropical issues to -- and shore. They're debating as well as stuff as well public. You know from my extreme point I'd tend to look at things from a social science standpoint terms what we know about whether it's effective. And the statistics that -- site are dramatic. What I have to shade that the church on it is. Much less dramatic in terms of how effective it is. Com. The response some initial search dog and shrewd. Stop and fresh. Was effective. They're more -- more recent studies now for 2012. In the hole blues and initial conclusions and to pretty serious questions. In terms -- or stop and frisk is what it is accounting for. If you said in your comments. -- reductions that we've seen in in New York City. Com. That the challenge always is like you say there are many factors -- it affects crime decreases as well crime increases. The challenge for researchers is to figure out what those factors -- war. And win and our people and able to look at stopped him for -- It doesn't machine. It's called solely related to reducing across him. Them letters and -- was on a recent studies. That looked at several years in New York City. That they applying to that -- stop and -- it did have a positive effect on reducing. Burglaries. However. When -- -- that our armed robberies. -- actually it was a big surprise to report in the church community phone line that robberies actually increased. And so in terms of how effective it is which is one of the questions. I think mr. -- on the debate. As people. Talk about. Privacy -- we're willing to relinquish in exchange for safety the safety side of it is important. In terms of now. Effectiveness. Any evidence right now is so you know as with most scientific or church -- conclusive. But I do you think it's safe to assay. It's not nearly as effective in reducing violence. Is. People initially hoped actually ball -- just blocked it. -- big picture. Other than the downside of of which might all call personal freedom more privacy. On the hassle of being stopped and questioned and Frist mean -- people do that by the thousands every day at our airports in the right we put up -- it. Tom is there any other cost or downsized to enemy and I think would the old saying and every little bit helps. I think that this case that happened was the Burma street shooting I mean I'm not a police arson of a 1000000001. But I'm a pretty good judge of character and you know it would take -- obviously is going to be some profiling. Of people that might have some reasonable suspicion mean I think it's pretty easy to tell. But tourists from somebody who's looking for a bad time out there and to stop them and question them and ask him some questions in May be frisk him if it is necessary. Can take candles guns often make in those arrest and -- guns away and put felons in jail for accounting and guns. -- can be a bad thing I think that the reward there. It is is is really great and even if it's not that main factor in dropping. New York's dramatic crime problem I think every little bit could help and Elsie -- much Curtis. Well and I certainly agree with you when whenever police state bar arms. And violent potential. -- street it's it's it's good thing. With respect to implementation. You know police have to be able to work to speculate what leads him to do it it's not just a matter of Adam. Watching -- saying I think this person might be carrying gone. There're a number Supreme Court number guidelines about what police have to be able to demonstrate that led them to do to stop. Com and risks so it's. You know it's purely a matter. Profiling it can't be articulated. With some. Demonstrable behaviors that they watching them and not be equally able to to do it. One of the downsides. That columns with this. Just kind of pro active approach. Hand there is for sure on this question is that -- is diminish trust between the public and the place. -- some searchers or cues that might actually increase. Crime. It's speculated at this point that and he said earlier that the increased robbery might actually have been. Contributed to this lack of -- so there isn't a derision downside. Apart from. Guns that might be confiscated. Or people be. Imprisoned. It's a difficult issue. From a short spam point -- is of the way it's implemented it makes it difficult. Searchers like coached to do it in the year and -- programs. To figure out what exactly happened. But I do think there is costs. There it goes no financial cost necessarily. Bought. There's cost to to doing it. And while I agree with you we need to think about all sorts of way it is -- -- traditional types of policing as well so. Nontraditional. Innovative approaches. There this year two -- would we can get to work. All right John thanks so much for your input on this would really appreciate your walk out of doctor George Kapalua it's department of sociology -- university this morning with thinking about the possibility of stop and -- in the city of new laws to help stem the crime issue it's worked in New York according to them. To what extent they say it has worked greatly I mean they've got lowest merit races of depression. They had last year the last count they did at the peak of then stop and for his stop was 685000. 724. Stops. 88% of them resulted in illnesses. Which is a good thing almost 90%. But guess what that 12%. Was found to be carrying firearms illegally -- being involved in a crime with a far. It didn't take a search warrant it didn't take reasonable cause it took what they claim to be reasonable suspicion. Identifying someone who might be a high risk for carrying -- five. Would that work in the city of New Orleans would we put up what would we you know what what brings about the big question it's obvious I mean is no cost to it is just a simply a philosophy. And now I'm I'm sorry to disagree with George apple which he doesn't think it would have much effect. Additional common sense standpoint of in his suburban street shooting and if one of those characters would have been the type that look like they might have been kind of firearm. In looking for trouble in the police stopped him and found that the -- people who were safe from injury in one woman would be alive today. That you could say it could be an abuse of power police would just be stopped and everybody for no reason. He's sacrificing what you call personal liberty well look what goes on and airports. Is that not a sacrifice of personal liberty mean. I've been you know going to airports have been Frist in -- through metal detectors and taken my shoes off and empty and everything in your pockets I mean just law abiding everyday citizens going from here and there. Certainly I think this would be effective -- -- -- say just one without adding any cost any additional offices. I would be willing if somebody stopped me and said look we know you have to file on one you -- gonna -- June you know that's both holiday you know -- and I think the only people. Who would be bothered by that would be somebody who would have something. Anyway what I thought about who would be best qualified to speak on this on right away the name Marjorie assessment came up the executive director of the ACLU. Margie thanks for taking time on the talk about this issue are all at -- I would be very surprised Marjorie if he said that the ACLU would back this is despite the statistics in the -- and so -- you know are gonna surprise -- intimated the ACLU was on percent behind stopped and restarted. -- turned on. -- tell -- is. That in new Long Island and the triple not only is is basic stop and frisk unconstitutional. Boylan right now Iran tested in new York and they look up now that the supreme. Well. On what you described as a reasonable suspicion that reasonable suspicion that the technical term. And when it's done -- on. Either profiling in the reasonable suspicion means that the officer had asked. A reason to believe that you do. Are engaged in all of might be immediately engaged in front criminal activity that means the -- -- -- like I think you look like as suspicious character attack could be. I had the lead -- to believe today you do might be doing something wrong. The -- reasonable. Suspicion and stop and think on any other -- is now only unconstitutional but part of what got -- sensitive. And a PD content decree which is costing you to manage money if you know PD goes. In the practices. That date supposedly have abandoned. They would be you know into practical and we have to be there. About -- in the and a PD go back to doing something that finishes them in the first place which is due to essentially profile people based on what they look. So I'm not gonna disagree with you characterization. That doesn't cost anything because -- On every time he can make a police officer. A -- from. Investigating. Serious crimes and put them on on duty and potentially profiling people and saying I'm gonna affect you because quite what you look like. -- -- Can act that had -- that is not investigating serious crimes. That is not doing other things that will really affect com. Either the crime rate and on and on a crowd actually. How long would you think the average stop and -- procedure would take. A way around this time that an officer could be spending in more useful manner. Well it depends on -- I need to find time I mean it is the individual you know -- that -- -- takes them to stop your -- it doesn't take very long at all. But when you haven't all been deployed to that beauty. Then the officer is not doing something else and they can -- their -- looking for people that looks suspicious to them and an -- them at free society. You know what we don't allow people to be targeted based on what they look. There why are we sold willing to give up our liberties at the airport so why aren't you so opposed to that and getting that taken away but does. Then on you know in their profile everybody -- Partly because that -- say everybody's treated the -- at the airport that's one reason. They don't -- land lines today he looks suspicious to me he got sensitive for on that -- viewed differently. If they that would be a problem however the other thing is that. Do you do that nobody at a constitutional right to get airplane that desperately to pay for. Everybody has the constitutional right to walk free movie. On the public streets. And so you know they are all sorts of things that he can choose. A voluntary activities. You'd -- maybe cost said that the -- them but the right to walk around on the street. That's something that everybody at contact. OK I understand that the opposition certainly not wanna give -- to personal freedoms and in the profiling point of it but you've got to agree. That any firearms at a taken away gotten off the street in that fashion and also people who put away in prison because they're convicted felons who have weapons. That would be a good thing. Well you -- agreement. Different issues I mean certainly. You know we have too many firearms in the street -- -- different that's the way to solve the -- and it will wait quietly. Remember that this state of Louisiana has what I believe could be the strongest gun can gun protection laws in the country and -- yeah. -- we don't protect concealed carry without a permit nor do we protect people who -- felons in possession. That's correct however. What we do require. This strange and -- restrictions on and on. It any kind of -- restrictions on gun and that could include just stopping companies saying he looks suspicious. But if you get suburban street and eat if one of these guys' head in head -- down the but -- I mean are on what they -- with -- side has been in. Well that's where it's got to be left up to the discretion of the office and they've got -- been given a wide latitude -- what constitutes reasonable suspicion. And now but reasonable suspicion by law. Could be that they think that you are -- well that credibility that he could he doesn't view mannerisms your actions and -- what else could be. Not your mannerisms -- now I mean people act out especially on Bourbon Street I mean come on people are drunk and -- great deal of time -- purposely kept. You know for a lot of people back suburban street floor and and and and we certainly don't want -- street to become a constitution -- -- where you know take in order to. To lock up and down you should -- constitutional rights and make itself open to further. Well I don't know how many people they would actually search I think it would be in the cases of those that they really do have some good reason to do and I would hope they would. And the question is would be gone. Has had qualified under the criteria and I would admit that they probably would not. And they probably would have -- any kind of scrutiny anyway. And I don't know that's debatable -- yeah I gotta go -- thank you so much for your input always good to talk. All right it's Marjorie -- executive director of the ACLU to George capital which -- criminologist -- department of sociology at Loyola he says that stop and frisk in New Orleans might have some good effect that. Not really all that impressed with what New York says it's contributed. Heavily to the reduction of major crimes in their city. I'm Marjorie Asman from the ACLU says absolutely not. It's not worth given up those personal freedoms it would result in profiling in. Becoming more of a burden in any reward that it might produce I disagree with both of mine and I'm just looking at this is the common sense thing immune weakened. Stop someone without having to get a search warrant that looks like they may be trouble and amplify parliament fund that they've got drives me in all these people that we end up catching. For the shootings and things that they've all that prize they shouldn't have guns a lot of them with felons and if they got a concealed and is not strapped in the open down there. Then they already piling all that's along a violation in itself. What do you all think 2601878668890870. Attempting maybe a couple quick calls go to Herman in the lawless arms on line one tournament thank you for call. I want him -- -- yeah. Let them about the comment on the that the home because it from the dead. I am Africa my African American ally in out before and my Chrysler when literally they were going to -- And certainly not mean that. Debate in -- -- with an already written -- -- -- -- in now to. Beat -- longer anonymous. Nobody might look at that as a good thing and say man I'm glad that jacket you know and it could to stop somebody and maybe save somebody's life by doing natural because of some inconvenience to you can't you see at that point. Almost like it. I'll put it that it is evident that many replies no I haven't done all that in my bat around you know. And you know but I'd mind that ticket. You know not going to quote. I have not -- be a bad light. But should not feel the same way when I walked through an airport named the big take my shoes off and make me go through this grand scan and they freshman in the past -- upon all over me and stuff like that that you know and I feel safer they're gonna do a lot of other places. But -- -- -- a choice to go -- or. You know that -- -- could put that solely death my choice if I don't wanna get rid of Augusta Greg Brown allowed to drop my car. Well you don't have to drive. That that you know there's no loss as you gotta be in a column. What to do it yet that. -- because under a bus stop and -- like they do in New York they call it reasonable suspicion. Some reason. That the bullet -- it via view I don't. I wonder if we asked that same question to that family that -- -- Hammond would they say it would be too much freedom to give up to get him back and it. And it we look at the Denham and then it. At the car met me I would let they might let it would EM back. We don't know possibility and -- of possibility he would. And I got to run thank you for the call appreciate your thoughts on -- like everyone wants to talk about stop and Frist have thought to have a lot of Tom I want to get -- call in New Orleans saw police officer Don tell me about stop and -- in New Orleans is a presently. Available as a tool to officers. Absolutely. It comes from a wait and more straight -- I caught you off -- it would that. That's a police are reasonable suspicion to believe that someone you'd just committed a crime. Aren't about to commit a crime. We can't stop -- and McCain camp and if we build our state U is in jeopardy we can't rest on our protection mean to do a pat in the outer clothing pulled out. Yeah unfamiliar with the -- -- Ohio but when you say is about to commit a crime would that allow you to stop and -- them because they look like they -- about to commit a crime how much latitude as a New Orleans. Police officer I have in this case. Well got it can't all part of all the Supreme Court case second of all the depend on your department policy but. It's the -- ability to articulate what you sir can you believe it on the ground about the gipper -- it. Do you think that's actually somebody walking down urban street. Gary and there are constantly porn actor -- -- and I can see what they're. Dot -- I don't wanna I wanna hear what you got disabled will run out of time PG -- back to on the 12 to 1 o'clock hour we're gonna pick the supplements. -- thank you very much also Stephen Steve deal on the no show at Dave -- steal a lot of you wanna talk about this we will do that coming up later. On the think tank.