That subject we've done many good but little bit different towards Stewart today. Prisons. And working. All we're doing things right -- way you do is anybody changing. And -- good government intrusive in this together and do you know I'm sure of Moreland goes and premier. Michelin drew have been down battling over the 145. Million dollar brand new Jew would 14100 plus beds. And have been battling over how much we pay who pays it allowances to -- And -- think there's a bootable -- overall the -- help provisions toured new hospital. And the appeal anything -- sure of that there should be a separate. Entities in this city thinking it could be part of it. You facility do something different or. But all in all the -- Gaza City. Content regardless which were records can cause those tractors even more. So I thought better run sales that would talk to us from criminologists. And thankfully. Doctor -- pending. Criminologists. It's -- university Georgia's that the sun -- to welcome the -- appreciated. Are you with the yeah somewhat yeah I do thank you again -- I do a better description of what's going on between -- of and then. The city's. Is -- attempting to. Pay -- forward the transportation. Of the middle Leo in his system to. Another location of the prisons being built what what's it torch. Did it seems very confused at this point. Is all the and then and the fact. The show we have to have a clear cut policy as to what should be done in the interim until. We have -- facility. That that is on holistic and -- inmates who have mental health problems up to abuse problem. I'm not sure at this point where what the history as a -- How other prisons around the country and that is all part of the single thing -- that have been -- in the hospital rather than -- that -- This doesn't have a mixed bag. Some some states would have Dubai happened which have hospital nearby. Although basic commitment of the overall. A situation is that most prison most places will have on Thursday and made it until finally. And so did the facility have to be adequately built in order to take care of this internal problem. What we're looking at here is renovation of the change whatever it takes yeah ultimately you know in the news. Talk about a -- Europe for a million dollars of five read this correctly. Ended any given time they've only got about a dozen inmates that that seems you. -- high costs for the small one. Well it is in fact I had not really looked at that number but if you're talking about that small numbers might be. Advantageous to -- have been treated away from. The end operations facility. And and that thing. And the figure I just gave me the Paula I don't think that's the UV mail right inmates -- 44. Spared from these inmates and I think that is the have a minute. -- Elaine LB in the hunt for a channels and currency Gabriel right and that's from where. There more -- -- 500000 to a million books there is kind of an indoor building and two we get whatever we're gonna build build bill. World one day and go and is. Paula caustic come where -- Would incarceration. Buried both monetary monetary and human. That we Lou there is still one of the highest crime. Rate places in the nation. And and so I think the problem we really need to rethink how we. How we deal with this issue of incarceration. Bill and then one. It's ironic that the very thing that we've done that lead to -- the a model of the high high rate of incarceration is fact that we. We can choose not to have facilities to treat. Is that the normal problem and the everyday kind of mental health problem that we have on the street today. Consequently. People in Debian and conferees and the problem that it's followed and followed him to the prison system. I think we just need to look at how -- What we've done in the past what we currently do and and do a better job of making sure that. This is there a treatment facility it is before we come to the point of having to arrest people and convict him of crimes which -- normally related to they're in many cases their criminal background in the foreign -- metal background in the first place. I've got to take a break when we come back let's talk about exactly and I looked. The -- most recent federal called for prisoners in the fingers 2014. And is almost 30000 dollars year for prisoner right and the back I don't know. 70s80s. There were bigger exposes. About the minimal. Help hospitals. And how old they were abusing. The people there are they from -- So we shut him down in the end up homeless now are we going to prove her brother and the question is. Even in those dollars was that 30000 dollar -- -- back then or is it cheaper. I called people for middle and oldest rather than for criminal acts come right back doubled -- BO what do you think is the news. Any of this concern your showed. Good to pocketbook. And a whole lot of money. And I'm not true we're seeing the results. Dead -- -- -- just to maneuver spending is money both men what do you think. 26017203866. Weighted dollar and zero words. Well old. And we have -- Governor of bureaucratic job -- opinion poll. Whereas here hoping -- rooms is getting more expensive are you willing to pay the more taxes. To lock him up through -- -- 67%. Obviously. Saloon league -- and I would submit. Is in the midst of Mississippi going in the other direction taxes going and though the correct and and many many of those states. Where those to discuss all of this gives -- -- education on the solution. Doctor John panic room and -- of groups that Sullivan University. Doctor nationwide. What the polls show people. All of wearer of the coached and if so or they more than willing like we seem to be to put the cost. I think dead on the nationwide basis people have come to the realization that we have to have prisons respond. We cannot continue. To lock up. More people have been in the Auburn. State in the in fact. We lead The -- global world and prison incarceration. We cannot have voted we would lock up more people of this. Thirteen thirteen more than China. Pointed more than -- and we are the world leader in the cooperation but more than that. When we look at the fact we have -- dominated non violent print -- prisoners locked up. We if we we have to reduce that -- of incarceration. Then we would have mobile market has been on the uses of -- held school educated people and get in people. End to the -- area of socialization and education reduced -- prison population by. Paul more than in cooperation with still the move won the most violent state in the nation. We have math and -- operation. Would have math issues that that we associations that we're not able to deal with because we've pour in more money isn't too. Prison block. In cooperation. It it's interesting that we don't believe in big government. When it comes to that called the big government were Portland the we have to do so I was so. This golf -- there's to balloon by the name of a tort reform bill. And he yeah apparently -- architect of can of warm in taxes. Right and you did so well that him being a bio states appears. Pennsylvania was one dream about applied. What they have is -- crime -- in Pennsylvania. Dropped by 15%. But prison population increased by 40%. Prison cost in Pennsylvania -- 77%. To almost two billion dollars. And or are only doing the same thing here it could experts on that told me. Our primary who's actually going down and he's. I'd I'd ever heard and and took some. Some degree resize my -- But what -- do -- It did that. Prison industry is -- massive capitalistic. They gain. A profit kind of concept that we. Really don't talk about very much in the end so while the president the crime rate may be gone down in certain -- used for example when we look. At murder the murder rate than in the and then. New Orleans. Of course we we've we've we've really. Pop open and then there and pushed in the -- verbalize -- and written in -- otherwise. Talk about how the crime the Margaret has gone down but yet if we really look Odyssey you have all of robbery that stood out. We know that that presents. I just think that we have not. Come together in the collaborative ways to do with this massive problem that we have. In the state of Louisiana which is called crime which is related to many issues such disruptive view in an otherwise that we. Really don't want to get it. The tactics that Texas expert. Looking at Pennsylvania. And looking for ways to reduce and one very intrusive. One of the main area who's going after driving under the influence. He's saying that. Even those the drug well. Anything goes of driving influence militant violence and killing Biden and -- -- Shouldn't be -- in the prisons in the numbers that they do -- -- Iran. So he said. That it ordered out. The number in Pennsylvania increased by more than 100%. And a one year period. In. 2004. To 2000. Remained at those rates. And he's if you judge reduced the prison sentences. Or do you lives that you would reduce the cause tremendous. Do you agree. I agree -- and and that's just one example. Of how we are it's been didn't. I mean -- future in in prison incarceration based on the fact that. There is this fear that it nonviolent. Pot smoker two time move that the Republican dual. To jail that's been and then on -- amount of time and we pay for it it's so. So but I when you look at the the DW. Do you you've. If the same issue many of them need to be treated stated they don't need to get offered what they do and they need to be. We need a great public education where we make people aware of that drive and under the influence is pretty dangerous Spain. And as we've dealt with so many things -- like I can tell you that I lose the one of the lead and criminologists and on the a lot of -- laws that statement -- And we will locked in people simply because they were both participated and then in sexual. Behavior that we -- not -- -- Doctor think renewed mark minority would credit him. Group we did you if you just showing those ones were talking about it. It's -- all over the country including Mississippi and Texas. Or do elected changed. Their their criminal system that prison system. Because one of things being it's too expensive. For the results were again. Like -- know more people than cover. And spending more money than ever. And crime has been going on but have you talked to most criminologists. Crime was going down both for. We went into the -- stringent laws have three strikes in Euro and three year. Mister -- put together you could give it twenty years and it's. Ten years since thirty's since it's so we will look at all those cause some we've -- Once again. We go under -- experts to. Try to better understand the food got -- and John and back criminologists. Southern Robertson. Doctor with the all the Singh said. Our little poll notes as 60%. -- listening audience agrees. With -- put him -- throw with the CNN. They'll be happy to pay more taxes that is the only issue. Since -- -- on the year woods eight or nine years. That I've ever the the public over the year for citizen groups sitting in the studio. It -- pay more taxes this is the only one that I get Tom and Tom again. That they would would think the differences here. While I think of that lack of understand that they share played great thought into it but I also -- If you take the same poll seven local and ask them what -- world in the grade teachers support. Public education. And the -- That public universe is here and I don't think you'll have to say I'm great now all. Dog and a -- -- for sure we don't a computer and one boom. One -- of things it's Texas. Expert is telling him Toobin and others they were -- He talks about the bureaucracy. In this this in the news media. In Pennsylvania. Day. Have -- For. In the they use to get treated current and writing Lewis. -- most -- little inquired program is nearly 8000 people wool and the average -- -- well over your club and 43 days. And what happens it is people -- -- and for a year or two years. Because of these backed loans in different programs. Are and opt. Wounding six more injury you're more. Then there's sentiments. And the average cost is almost fifty million dollars year how to or to plug the bureaucracy. That it is -- has always been opened the bureaucracies. It was one of the things that really. And so counterproductive. To any possibility of -- and changes are. Treatment in in the system but one of the things that we have to push for and people. Who want to spend their money why they would bite investigated I'll. Of the prison system. There really reduce the costs by happened experts who are in the treatment they have the -- into the prison system and dues treatment as opposed to the bureaucracy itself and again and out of control. So I think we just on -- need to look at rip and -- off but let me say something you'd. -- -- All the people talked about beer and conservative. The and paper small problem. There in April reduce the cost of system there -- a lot. That the whole idea of -- and operation. Pick -- that yeah the public all idea that -- -- -- I'd billions is definitely we we have more people and operators are -- and it is no. Doctor. -- -- -- always. Pleasure to have you on the show our rob -- appreciated detail. Margaret. All right coming up next we'll talk to. Another professors so unstable this double of the -- celebrity you more on the read. The finger at about two -- Bring you prison as we build two New Orleans under reported five million dollars worth. Over 14100. Beds. I'm an old computer is it and now we're talking about -- billion dollars more in on the future of boots to. Build part of the prison for the middle Leo or have that separate structure for the mentally ill or in the mean time Tuesday. 500002. Million votes to send them Jews say Gabriel and then bring them back at camp with the permanent buildings built. So I was always regular -- experts bedroom standing and and -- the back at skewered -- a bureau project more opinion -- Housing problems getting more more expensive imported -- -- and work. Or are you willing to pay more taxes to lock him up and throw with QB. At one point the little poll says 880% of you say absolutely now it's that to put. We have doctor Jose blue -- who -- this. Economics professor division of business Xavier University doctor appreciative golf. Renewed would you take a look at so the money do you understand world of these questions are when it comes with the the prisons and a 145. The price that gives them the more money do we use taxpayers'. Pay anything for -- and in this warm milk in the third talk about it is that separate building within the prison -- -- stand in the -- Well it can give me it is very complex and the numbers are daunting. These. The Mercury cart deliberately crux of the matter really comes down to one of not only economics we're also. The sociology of the issue Israel the year. The very idea -- behind me you know in order. You know a bigger and better. Wow you know OPG. -- should really demand are sort of with the intention though of rehabilitating and not just incarceration. Because now we're in a situation where. You know. We. -- society of well you know. It comes down to a cost benefit decision on or -- people so economic status. And what they believe -- you know the consequences of -- of their actions. Well what you'd annoy your column -- but. This this kind of worked -- the economy. In the in such Ohio conservatives. Day. Where we say we hate big government and we just birds rolling across the board. Say a brilliant pay additional taxes because we don't cause the duke. The government structure. Oh why do you think when would taxes changing Mississippi change in federal government changing. Most states in this country changing their attitude about how to reduce crime and reduce cost. What we stay in the months. Will pay whatever it takes and we like. Locked in -- more people than any other place in the country in per capita. In him and no -- to bigger than us world war. -- part of the director of the yield you know -- in -- she nimby attitude. Where you know. You know build a bigger one you know longer does not in my backyard. They -- the issue really comes back to you know providing. I'm. Incentive economic incentives slower individuals. Do not. To do resort to. Criminal activity tend not to resort to. On ways in which you know they can. Beat the system it really it really come back to developing. You know stronger economic base stronger economic base within the not only does the city of New Orleans of course the degree to ignore those records but you know the greater metropolitan area there hasn't been war. Economic up. Provisions -- economic. Opportunities. For individuals -- There -- two you know providing for a better likelihood. Let me let me take a first Greg -- would come back. Let's talked to some of the listeners who would talk to her doctor Batista B just -- induced. The reserve during the show there and so architect of prison reform than taxes were there changed radically. And apparently he did so well forward Texas you've been hired by a Blue States. And they hired him up in Pennsylvania where they're spending almost two million dollars a year and in May cause and we're -- -- he's -- doom. Is save room somewhere I think it's Rwanda. 43 million dollars you're strictly by not putting do you allies in prison. That didn't hurt somebody you are called it violent in -- In troops coming right back double bill bigots. A -- 53 yeah. Renewal -- shows on fraud and we drew a lot of shows on -- schism presences. Did -- were talking about costs in the resume that is. What movie architects of prison reported taxes ms. sipping have been saved me a lot of money brokers dates. And we have -- an economist for this doctor Jose broad he says economic from browser. Division business Xavier University dark funeral -- bring in some of the callers -- hardly Norwood doctor -- -- appreciated call. That he had mentioned about the private. -- jails that are being built is. Ali Q what the but it cost the state but what it cost the state if they want privately -- what they were. State sanctioned off. Building that it debatable. And the creative tensions you know. Think it will reasons that they went too quiet in Prague but there's -- -- one that would be cheap. I've never heard that exporting. On on any. Well did you call. Doctor doctor you have any do. Well. Any time that any kind of public expenditure really comes down -- -- you know it would. What economists call the you know comparing the marginal benefit from marginal cost when when it comes down to issues such as this. Crime is crime becomes an 8080 an issue that becomes. Area are very specific. You know what to particular neighborhood their particular district. So could result if it's Thursday. You know if crime is it localized into a particular part of that part of the metropolitan area are part of -- -- a particular city. -- It is or neglect you know if if I look in another part of this city bogeys we will gain or you know I'm okay. And the extent to which. Marty and Marty local area is and is -- is trying to create then I shouldn't be part of the responsibility. Now once eating -- and she went -- neighborhoods in either playing says. OJ important is that it's actually like neighborhood say OK I will pay mortgage you. Provides for a you know better president -- you know police 600 -- or what does the other. In the long run over people again using economic terminology people vote with their feet and moved to. The outskirts into the suburbs where. Where you know urban crime is an initiative. So. It doesn't solve the problem. You know someone has to pay it forward. You know if it turns out you know whether publicly or privately. Financed it really comes down to. You know getting to the core of the problem and you know. Dealing with -- Issues more money on an eight and AM more global. The prevalent -- -- good work local issue then mania they -- you know district or out. You know neighborhoods specific problem. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Yeah. The corporations do reduce calls number one we don't have to money. Private prisons here what I'm told on the show and on the search element is that the the -- throughout the state. Make their budget on people in their prison. And really don't want the laws changed because that would put the budget. And staged around the country have figured 24 bit. That do have corporate prisons have contracts that say they need an 80% occupancy rate. Otherwise they lose this savings consequently what happens is they go looking for -- people to put in prison. And they bring you do you keep the cost from ever going down for a of the of them -- the war and the approval -- the putting you lose Texas and misses the big put goodness -- day or looking to change the situation. Dollar on the north sure it would doctor Byrd tees. -- -- -- But it took -- -- Britain's Paula I'll probably. He. Want. -- -- the bigger. Problem. Like -- we. All our program you. You were at Indy but. -- would get. -- -- -- Well like. But here specifically. At -- are not. Well. But it. -- -- -- -- And the war. Or it knows where -- can -- -- -- -- -- Don good get in short -- time to -- bring up some good point. What did they don't we or -- we diversified enough. No definitely not in the year in the point to caller Maria they took the political written virtually which the incarceration should always be a -- torn down as a primary. Objectives in their rehabilitation. Of the idea of the incarcerated. And the certainty it shouldn't be limited to anything else. I no longer good friend of good amount of local judges within our community. Better you know take that into account -- you know due to very much that like to picture and chula. -- that you know -- you know people who they could be sentenced. Realize that they should use that time to to better themselves and to rehabilitate themselves. As a matter of you know as a matter in terms of you know what prayer is you know. Definitely we we do we really show it to be had diverse and Great Britain diversifying our our our local economy more. Very introducing. They figured -- got about thirty seconds that. If you can't remain the same candidate or are that cautious -- -- -- gore and opened up. Don't we have to do light. Other states in the south and round we can't drew find different ways. Oh definitely definitely and you know it. Here's you know that -- again if if there are different ways in which. You know different other communities and in other states in -- in their sleep in in other in other countries. Have. Found ways to you know to do. Ameliorate this probably should definitely. And investigate and see where we can learn and and emulate via the benefits. Doctor who's so old bridge at that time you agree it. Double -- yeah well we're coming right back with the Clinton. Middle East and your grain coming up some new witness.