Jul 21, 2014|
Garland talks with CBS military expert Jeff McCausland and Dr. Graeme Bannerman of the Middle East Institute about the conflicts in the Ukraine and Israel and what they mean for America.
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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
Welcome back. I was little watching TV during the break. Hospital. He did in the golf. Many more people dead. We got about 500 that threw for. Video violence obviously escalating view of the situation. For me certainly news seeing some videos. For. Political ramifications. That currency and that will open for the very valuable time blah. Or we. Currently retired chip called Lenovo also Lucy you notes -- -- military expert. Colonel welcome back to -- appreciated on our. Hopefully we get and what's happening in the league you've got to help. In this. Houses is that what about 45 miles long. So -- You're about right there at 12 o'clock thirty miles long and about half that distance wide broad terms of Lander to be roughly the size of Las Vegas. And in this area yet one point more million people as a very did -- popular here as well. It's Florida and never quite understand. When that when it says Israel has been sealed -- -- You know we have trouble keeping people from not crossing our border. Virtually every Sullivan European country as saying problem. In a situation like this were. Or just soliciting and reported allegedly. Israel told the Palestinians. Were getting word strike here's a couple please and you should go home. To be said he won't removes the hospital and -- the hit it. They keep a million people 500000. People 30000 people from just surging the border and going into Tel Aviv in Israel and everything else. I guess that would be possible. That being there at the moment with he would have been Israeli -- who have and those corrections the potentially Bentley. So you have to Alterman with the Gaza Strip on the southern. Border with Egypt which is also been close -- the complaint by the folks and Gaza Strip for many years. As there are living in this -- economic isolation whether. We're not allowed to conduct commerce split you know across the board Israel and Egypt very difficult for the travel. Out by the Gaza Strip and this is putting in north an economic structure and -- -- a provisional reason. Which served in printers to poverty which enforcement into a result it. Troopers -- the young folks to look -- organizations. As a way. In this is it just seems. To be usable. -- a million and have closed people act in tune. A 25. Mile long. 10615. Mile wide in places. Or or. Totally jail to where they can't move well. Exactly and critical given the fact that throughout. Half the population. The agency -- that the very young populations so. Opportunities for. Education opportunities for job -- senator hard or difficult for these folks living in the figure. Dude do you ever talk to -- in the Israeli military. Off the record. I have occasionally I have read that but I happen. Have you ever asked him how do you need. Long term. You can keep from going to all out war. If you've got people in prison no jobs. Tacked on top of each other and -- new tactic Kimberlin. Then that seemed like a recipe that sooner or later has to totally blow. I mean and yet you're exactly right this is the challenge. Israel and prominent and well -- they now. -- this year conducted hostilities aircraft artillery departure. Against the Gaza Strip -- three to and 2000 and non. That has been -- at times tactically successful that and they have reduced the number of rockets in our servers that are certain route a quiet. Sort tactical success but that -- that in lead towards the strategic success who would really worries about this whole situation -- these time. His players. They're seeing readers demonization of -- a -- Israelis demonizing Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and vice Versa. Which then leads to more recurring violence and we've seen Obama go increase its numbers. But also increase and expand its commercial rockets and the -- those rockets now construction in party in Israel. And and do you think they are dome -- some they have broad broad broad down I think. Most of the raw goods are -- -- strategic error is is this adequate to keep them protected. All the correct movement good time but it certainly seems to have been area. And very good to that being whether that can continue indefinitely remains the question is of course. Obama has attempted other means to strike Israel that's one of the reasons for Israelis would be you know on the ground and -- -- Is because of the construction. -- that series of tunnels. There's a lot has used in portrayed in the Israeli territory. For the purpose of conducting ground attacks against Israeli settlements -- Israeli military version. So for the current offensive Israeli army has closed stated that there objective initially is sure these stolen works to preclude them do. At some believes there may -- Asia so the question in my apartment passionate about it. Couple weeks ago watching that showed you grow up and oh lead the archaeologist. With the help books and software engineers. Use the satellite to literally detect ancient cities under the saint. -- were -- they could see the outline vacancies on details. And in some cases are extremely deep but they -- the detective. Those natural have no kind of military. Technology that that can detect a -- At the request. I don't know I mean and bill. -- -- ago at least in terms those portions of the problems the -- Gaza Strip. Google appealed destroyed by using Google it and depending on the depth of the poems though -- detected. And your ability destroyed by indirect far. Probably there has been need to go in there and take about physically. I think the other -- that these Israelis hoped to accomplish in the current offensive. His allotment has been losing a lot of favor at least one thing we haven't seen in the current war. It is march yeah complaints by committee Arab countries Egypt that went on with the supporter would present -- he was there. He has been deposed and replaced by presidency he is no friend of the laws because of the losses ties the brother. So Israelis may believe this is the opportunity to strike not a deadly political off a series -- blown ought to have built them for walkers to. If you've got that small lead and -- of these people literally your -- in cannot get out. How are they getting missile it's two of them. A lot of it has been part was imported prior to -- the in the departure present -- -- who believe they came across the Egyptian border. Somewhat by the way is also -- a whole series of total. Connecting them between Egypt and the Gaza Strip -- smuggling as well as well -- importing weaponry. Are you got to remember that got the Gaza Strip as large. -- of the -- and the number of weapons came in. -- by the there's been some Israeli attempt to to forestall or preclude the importation of weapons systems certainly slip through. In that way. And they have also begin some efforts to develop and build there. Rudimentary rockets. It's veteran. Physically in the -- mr. Lou let me move overview Korean group quicker and -- have been approval. What do what do you see happening there. I went back can do loan. History reading as. And there are have been seven civilian plane its passenger planes. Shrugged downs since the fifties most of them by the military's some of them just militias. And and -- of one point. We shod. And rainy and -- flight 209 dead straight George Bush. In. Board's vice president this is his quote. I'll never apologized tubular and -- states I don't care what the facts are. I am not and apologized group -- the American kinda guy. And I don't remembering the repercussions. Is this something that players and just dies like that. I don't think that the case the dog mean. Certainly in this particular case of course we not only have the large numbers did become so many different countries. It's for the complicated by the fact that this is done combat -- Think it's somewhat different the other things you mentioned -- You -- an airliner Soviets using a detailed problems and secondly to victory. -- -- he comes at a time when there's been a large you'd -- and international community. Against the Russian Federation. Have for their support of these so called separatists -- rebels -- ago called. In the eastern Ukraine in terms of providing. Advanced weaponry provocative military assistance provide them money. The moving some people at least. Across the border to physically fight in the eastern Ukraine from Russian Federation. And now that has underscored by this tragic accident. In which all fingers pointing toward these separatists have the most likely culprit to shut them as there. And one final question. We've been -- show on the walls of privacy. In this day and and other governmental agencies with drones that can be. Count the -- here or in your eyebrow and he even more and box drone that can. It is square around people when they walk out to them and put him in the cloud -- then apply -- aberrant. Continue to gather information. We're certainly no detection Dubai -- in space or in our arsenal. They could show where that brought crude came for. No we have pretty noted that the media actually. Told aren't so we've actually tracked the launch. And in the US it is it's pretty dark on the peninsula with four -- so. That the missile launch did come from territory that is under the control these so called separatist. And that's just one of the products as well city at times these separatists in an having these. -- -- launchers eleven. In their possession. Furthermore. After the aircraft were shot -- rather after -- in due course -- -- off the Russian who -- substantially. I think he called himself defense minister of the republic of the net. Sitting on Wednesday -- would shot. And that's the answer there a couple of trade aircraft one -- -- large and 26 aircraft piloted that Twitter he would move very quickly. -- -- -- to do a very strong. Indictment the so called dissidents has been the most likely parties and now of course. They control privacy. And seem to be lacking the ability or willingness to allow the international community dinner and conducted the investigation. So we're always appreciate your expertise in the time of garlic or put. Her -- job McCall's and CBOs military experts -- via. We've got a another expert come up on the Middle East and doctor Graeme -- arm and we have -- -- quite open. And boom boom we talk -- bit of rule in general also Ukraine. But -- I was curious because like here. All of these things were were talking. About doing. When it comes to Ukraine when it comes to Russia. But -- -- fascinating to what is. Through four days actors. The bringing don't move Malaysian. All -- -- subdue civilian gender plane. The bodies rotting. In the train cars. In the area of control. By the Russian counterparts. The the rebels fighting against Ukraine and or -- Russian. And it would seem like either you -- inform me. Could move into that they're very -- to recover the news. Or the rebel boats. Knowing that by not turning over the age. They've got to be losing. Paper. In those areas that perhaps. Have been silent. On whether -- -- -- what they're doing. Or Russia. Could move the group. Military and to get the bodies. To deliver. And quite figured well. How that is occurring. And what the ramifications. Or if -- And then I thought. There were shot down -- might be a member. So they're worth instances in words civilian airliners have been shot down. And I mean not a pound ball. But there's. -- you news website that I think is really good scroll box view -- In the resent that you -- good everything it says. It footnotes. It tells you where they got it. Who -- Where you can funded. Well they've ordered that seven to -- Militaries. Had shot down civilian plates. And I can't find a lot of repercussions. Of the than their name implies. Again. Our own President. George Bush Republican and the quote. The actions in 1988. Our military showdown wrongly imply to civilians passenger -- 209 -- And he should quote I will never apologized for the on Wednesday it's unclear what about it so. I'm -- and apologists. For American kinda guy. And and -- and -- precautions there is apparently what do you think will anything -- be done. Or. Would reduce move on to the next news. Covered up. Our blue arrows still thinking about the Middle -- specifically. Israel. Gaza. West bank and you know grade. When we go look at what's happening in gobs of today -- fighting is escalating just. Ladies used for touring a hospital was hit and apparently. It was a hospital that was in the area -- Israel. Before they've been attacking have been sending very quick messages saying you gotta get out. We're gonna hit -- area these -- -- -- statement apparently -- reportedly. But should qualify that. The news reports say that they had told people where the hospital was would want to say imperatives and then. Rocket -- bomb. Jet plane dropping something hits that Eric. And we're doomed them we will look at the situation in Ukraine. Four days later we get word that they're finally shipping the bodies. We get word that that he may. Be turning over the black boxes. So when you look at the Middle East today -- -- it's funny were you not only tragic but it. In pursuing actions. That whenever I used called doctor Graham government adjunct scholar at the Middle East Institute. Usually for a specific country. But when you look at the Middle East today. It did this looks like a box of matches. It looks like moves away and mentions -- -- To their -- drug about it Israel law hum it's. Ukraine. And they -- the doctor Georges once again -- have been good talked huge been one. -- Lips lips are within Israel just. Watching fox and CNN. Reports of something bomb. Airstrikes. Hitting a hospital Peru would be. Palestinians were told this is in every you can run through its Kennedy's April while. Two in -- is -- sustaining. This. War politically. Worldwide. I think it's become a very difficult problem for the Israelis is that the -- as of this time without clear objectives in the know political agenda and the international media for the first time during when these Gaza -- is in Gaza so that date the media is being filled with. Civilians were being killed and kids and it's it's the -- sustainable prolonged period of time. I heard of really vicious debate on. Natural review program you know should -- of this. And what the -- should you know is rule is horrible you people in the media and talk about it. They do all these -- horrendous things. And the defense was. Hamas attacked them with a rocket they had to respond and give us. Educated -- what's going home what what do you seek is there something. The media and the general public it's missing. I think this is. One of the better situation there's been in the Middle East and time because the chance for peace between Israelis and the Palestinians is his distant today as it's ever been. And he's Sizemore desperate and it's it's brilliant fortunate I mean. The problem for these releases you're dealing with Gaza. He can get some idea as early as is about a 139 square miles -- the land of the problems was about -- -- twelve models. And there are. Five times as many people in Gaza. There's no place for the civilian population to Google you have what it has supposedly intently is going to be great. In the past there was no international media in Gaza except war. This one reporter from Al-Jazeera in the last war. This time there every network has reporters sitting in Gaza. And every time they say were trying to prevent civilian casualties the pictures comment chose -- child and so on that woman -- some. Innocent person being killed. It is it is a tragedy for the Israelis because they can't that we in the propaganda war and the the public relations war sober realities of the problems the personal. -- -- How big dips depending on which numbers you believe we've got 405067000. Children. Running across our border. From countries that -- at least separated by Mexico. And their running strictly because of violence. Now you've got born and I have million people. If I understood you correctly an area about 25 mile longer maybe 67 mile wide. Q so people from just surging. In entered Jerusalem and and the rest of this for. The resistance around Gaza and it and it and I know tires on and they are trapped there. In this area there there is virtually imprisoned here. They told controllers the access they don't control their error access and the borders are sealed by the Israelis and most of it and the egyptians on the southern part. These people are large prison -- So there's no walk across there's no. And that there are it's all wall. It is all fenced -- and -- is there's no way with these people. And there's no. That there is apartheid -- -- -- Detroit with anybody they're not allowed to do anything that this is just think contentment that surrounded by the Israelis and an. And they controlled their entire access the world. And this level -- -- save favorite. I can't get -- and -- is -- living and I still Lebanese in the air are sympathetic to the patents but there's so many other problems in the region but the other. People with in the region are. Totally distracted by the -- of the Islamic state by that by continuing battles in Syria and Libya any rock. The rest of the region is distracted. So if they're it's no answer for the Palestinian people enormous game. If there is no. Announced. No reason for a is ruled to be there are other than stopping the rocket look improved -- -- What what's the end game but that's where where does all this isn't. That's -- I think the Israelis have made a tactical error -- They had a clear problem with these rockets coming out of as it was it was unacceptable. Hundreds -- -- coming out every night. And rockets that are coming out of Gaza and not missiles these are imprecise. Instruments that are -- as they just shoot him in certain direction but they have no way to control where they. So the Israelis and at the decision themselves and they felt it necessary to intercede against the problem once there's no political solution and there's no real end. Out of these what will -- Israelis say there's a victory. Let's take the the hypothesis that they could destroy Hamas if they destroyed Hamas. Nobody I've spoken with believes the successor organization. Will be any more reasonable prospect that the more radical it only makes the situation work. All right let's take a quick break here when we come about it. Over and what possible it is the -- permanent occupation by Israel would be. And then after the election move over the Ukraine I've got a couple of 101000 questions or to save others think about the figured about -- version of ruled -- home it's Ukrainian. Doctor Graham betterment and took scholar of Middle East Institute Lawrence's. Two help boost veteran Sam what's going on a doctored dude if it is true who's in such words and where. They're really not gaining much because it's. In some quarters in the world many quarters in the world because -- Current news coverage in Gaza Strip it seemed like but do you -- taking. Advantage about -- population that can world and then where. And they know they can't do much more than. On the -- outside and -- drew backing him anymore Lebanon. They know the kid that he is true. There's just something good to them do intermittently when frustration it's where they. Kidnapped some -- kill him or send a rocket over -- a never ending search which. At this point it appears to be a never ending situation. These -- really is withdrew from Gaza in 2000 inside and you said green these this is the third of these confrontations. In less than a decade. It is difficult to see how you get out of that -- of course there's a fundamental political change in the relationship between Israelis and the Palestinians in Gaza. And there seems no willingness on either side to make that change. If Israel quote god out of browser would you know I'll go back in and just take control. Now -- really got out of that that because it was untenable for them to control. They beat Palestinians say the Israelis still controlled Gaza controlled airspace. The access and the land access to a place you control and that's that they say they are doing so it's. So -- for the Israelis have to -- the control without having to be on the ground. Here if all this control is in Holland does Hamas. Have more sophisticated weapons granted. They're not very directional with their longer. Live longer and it. There's two types that it's stood. Some sophisticated weapons from other countries Turkey and Syria that the -- things in the past some of them get through -- In addition the gotten themselves with the -- cottage industry demand manufacturing to a range rockets which most of them which they have our estimate. And therefore it is you know it is when people are desperate to find ways and so and to protect themselves. You're growing where and when I first heard this pink slipped Thursday. I thought -- -- -- can be olden days you can lectured and a civilian plane. And then. Landslide. A little homework. And I've found seven civilian plane sensitivities. Victories. Shut down all Biden older and one of them in the media it was our house we brought down. -- flight 290 dead. And George Bush said. Will never apologized for the United States from reading the direct quote. You. Look for in the real rep cautions to. I think there's going to be repercussions and I think that's I think what we're at a point with the United States is really appraising its relationship with Russia. We've gone through this period since the tropical Soviet Union where we've really had no rival for. We have increasingly taken the Russians on and the Russians have increasingly taken us aren't. And I think -- a position where we could end up with a rivalry again that was equal but mr. Israel with the United States if this situation is not handled well. Boom -- we talk about broad broad collections. What we're talking about. Financial restrictions. I think it is a part of the crisis over Ukraine. And I think. These measures take in the sanctions put -- -- which is done naturally to make it my natural inclination as an American of these people do something that I think it's a transcription of international -- We want to strike back at them. But I think the week we haven't been doing is saying what is the long term relationship that we -- with the Russians and probably in the long term interest of the United States and how do we get the both in the short tour was announced to the retention of the Russian and appearance in the Ukrainian. Almost darkened to a military men who have stood -- so well what can you do when this situation said well. When it comes with the Ukraine you can get NATO to a share of things like intelligence. That can buy have been cyber equipment. Both -- and -- nonlethal. And and food and fuel and money do you look for NATO -- and it's. All those things yes they. NATO could do that but will that change the situation on the ground with the Russians believe it's in the national interest. But this eastern Syria Ukraine should be with in this spirit -- imports and and I am a true we're willing to stand up to them with a push comes to short of and then -- just. Increasingly become a -- relations with Russia. One final question. It be in an area where you have. Pro Russian militants but not a whole lot of them. Why it could be Ukrainian or may not Gordon and get those bodies wildwood Putin's not sinden Russian troops. In good those bodies to me and the fact that things were stolen off of the bodies in the lot usually they're per -- is. I don't I don't understand why that wasn't solved quickly. It is is it's beyond me to pitch but that should have been taken care and handling of this plane incident. It's totally unacceptable but what happened -- is the eastern areas. But the Ukraine. And in the presidential election before the last one voted 85%. More for the guys who they demonstrators broke out of corpus. Therefore they never will witness. The with the demonstrators of the new -- so that was NEC these people McGee's seat. The current government as pat legitimate because they -- power legitimately elected president it is a very complicated situation. And we have decided to support the transition because the government more pro western and has this is more open to Europe the Russians have a very different perspective of that. Doctor. I couldn't sleep you feel we're going to be your big news -- in the regular -- to -- and of collective. Getting better in the middle you -- all depletion in the world always pretty sure it's time and expertise. Are. Over a -- -- celebrity real moral 53. And jovial his next fascinating showed all -- his -- -- Coogan talked about don't warming health crisis. 70%. Of all children adolescents. In the United States or obese don't go away. And -- Is next.