Jul 28, 2014|
Garland talks with Peter Juul of the Center for American Progress and Jim Phillips of the Heritage Foundation about the conflict in Israel.
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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
Joan at least or shows on the show war between is true. And home loss and quite frankly hadn't planned on doing. Anymore until things change or got resolved -- got a whole lot of words. But is in in my every shootings about to move -- on other stories. A stumble on an article in their Spiegel the German publication. And I'm guessing pure conjecture on my part. That if conservative. People. Read this article. They would thing that -- -- liberal in Britain. But it it's article the blows. Relating an interview. With you -- to skin. Who's the director of Israel and -- security services. -- 20112011. And so the -- streets and hear it I just about her word. Infield -- perhaps it's been there not just miss it. But as soon as usual when they get these kind of things and not really sure what America -- we go to experts. Ripken drove with the policy analyst -- in the news sooner or Americans. Peter welcome to sure appreciated. Problem. Let me go down through those interviews and read specific things -- -- thought. Does skin was announced at the very beginning of the article. Is the goal of the operation for his. And he says it is equal parts action for sake of action and the rest of posh. Does that surprise you do you agree with -- do you disagree with the. I mean I had this I agree with that sentiment I think that. Well what's what's -- clear over the last couple weeks but this is gone down is that the Israeli government's -- Stumbled into this and doesn't really have a clear strategy. -- full what it. Plans to do in Gaza or in the west bank for that matter and I think that we are seeing quite a bit of action to take action aggression aggressive posturing. We side in the lead up to them that fighting in Gaza when. After these. Three Israelis were killed. In the West Bank. A lot of you know very aggressive rhetoric that sort of helped fuel the boot them. The need for action for action's sake from the Israeli government so. I think that that's that's good assessment. And again for people who -- fuel and him were talked about an interview -- der -- -- -- you -- this -- director of Israel's internal security service and 20052011. You do if you mentioned the three teenagers would which I thought was the the dignified or of the war. And this is what. Do you -- military representative says winters ago. Homeless. Didn't want this war -- -- either. Kidnapping and at three Israeli teenagers. I think that the homeland political bureau was taken totally bug it's a promise. Not awarded the coordinated not directed by -- You -- and that surprised. I actually I don't because it's one thing is that. You -- -- got -- -- which is on on the ministry coastal barrier -- an area it is a very small space. Which is part of the reason why he is obsolete cash these anytime. -- and major military operation there but. They don't rule the West Bank that's -- the Palestinian Authority. And President Mahmoud Abbas -- Who. You know it's -- to try to get. Negotiate agreement between the Israelis and and his government's. They do very. Good job in general of controlling the Hamas settles. It in the West Bank in their their -- disconnected from. Do the leadership in Gaza and in Qatar and the index outside of Israel Palestinian territories. If it would necessarily surprised me that. You Hamas to our group of Hamas members or affiliates or however you would describe -- in the West Bank to get this. Perhaps you stay active concert rhetoric that Hamas leaders. There's an operational connection that they would be surprised that that would happen. -- That would about it that would surprise me that you know that might have been taken off guard by that. But given given that the situation the different. Controlling. It in in the different Palestinian areas so they don't really have to -- control further. They're members in the West Bank that you would Gaza. We media as soon. Was the prime minister Netanyahu. Pressured by duties. Is really right. And his response was Netanyahu. Defense minister or -- None of them really wanted to Gordon. Israel didn't play in this operation that fall. Is rove was dragged into this crisis. Which. And I don't think haven't been -- it's I think it says. That the radical right to push Netanyahu defense minister. Or me achieved through into that your thoughts. I mean I. A little more and more time on national -- so much. If only he can kind of radical William -- right wing elements of his government have been had never been very helpful in terms of rhetoric. But a lot of this is Netanyahu backed himself into a corner with his rhetoric. After -- after the street kids were were were killed in the Hispanic I think that. If he -- the Milwaukee is right flank and I think that that dynamic between. In the political dynamic between his right in himself and trying to position himself to remain. To keep himself the power. They're feeling ingratiate itself the right way and I think that has more -- -- -- necessarily. Direct pressure from his right turned -- self inflicted sort of pressure. Working you know you'll indulge in this rhetoric that puts it boxes him in to a certain extent that you I would agree that the fact that it doesn't seem like. Given them then the the way he's that way that this can describe it as you know action for the -- of action and posturing that that is an indication that. Nobody really planned on this in there isn't really. A great -- strategic spot being put into it aside -- you -- -- maybe after the fact trying to figure out something they wanna do about it but going in. Think if that was the case. Peter -- to take a break here got a couple minutes moral with the would come right back. Questions comments Gibbs called to -- 01. Celebrity. But Fabio brigades. And 1053. Everything good about -- to forge some Middle East wind Israel and home Watson Gaza. And they get about a very huge I think -- usually interview former directory is rules and trumps security. During 200520111. Of their top. Military men. Some odd things startling statement on his sport and if he's righty. There there's a big part of the conflict that and I was a pull you aware. We have. Peter -- with a policy you know -- and to them for American policy. And we have about Jim in Baton Rouge where -- it's a dream eurozone would Peter drew. Yet thank you Garland. The CIA. League. Anybody. -- to figure out on the Israelis going. Even though we're her ally and do we. Which CIA people and they had to figure out what. Well option going or -- Hamas like he's got great shepherd -- small wing cause it. And does anybody know what. The Israelis. Who is doing. -- To -- This because -- Problem. In Ukraine major problem that scares me. It's well I mean obviously CA Green. -- today. No. Of course years so they have. Did you all US intelligence agencies has regardless. You know -- that our relationship with them they try to understand. What the political structures are going to do in. Allied countries that -- we have some foresight to OK well we what are they gonna do next. And we're not just got caught off guard all the time so about their their people in the in the honestly you're. That's -- job there they're doing right now. That they're doing a lot of other work anyway. -- these last couple weeks trying to. I keep up. You know this thing goes with it you know. Hamas you know Palestinian. Factions especially now given what happened is that it. Writes trying to. Get information and figure things out -- Again these statements by -- and the former Israeli internal security service leader. And he says frozen island instrument in the hands of Hamas not the office. Home laws doesn't care of it's populations stoppers on these attacks -- non. Because populations. Sobering anyway mullahs. Don't really care about the wrong casualties. Either. You agree that in and if so doesn't that preclude. Any kind of resolution to this -- people -- nothing to lose or or pretty strong will. Yeah but I agree with what this statement to distract from from -- and I think that. It's a source that -- -- -- -- -- it's it's similar to what you did with what they're trying to gain in order. Hoping to get things over from the -- is that Palestinians. And you know opening crossings that a lot oil material. More material that has been in the past into Gaza. That sort of -- one of ever since. Muslim Brotherhood was stripped out power Egypt they've been in more more isolated and other. What their objectives is trying to break and as consistent comment. Indicates that the quartet Palestinians there aren't that more. Basing their position -- and the more people. No sir objective in mean look at all policy or killing zone there is that dynamic I think it. -- I think this is right that Israel is playing into that. Rather than say you know -- and don't take care of these rockets is anti rocket system and -- basically. -- that -- impotence that they can provoke us and you know provoked Israel into doing. I'd do anything at -- -- help -- create a backlash. You know. The Israeli government decided to basically fall into this that strategic trap and that's that's I think the comment that. -- -- -- -- -- The military Brooks could quote. It would take could about two years satiric over the Gaza Strip and get rid of that -- -- types of weapons depots and the actions that issues. And from a military point of view it is possible. You see that happening in under. What circumstances. With the just totally occupied Gaza. I don't think that that's something Israelis really want to do in terms is -- in terms of we -- international. Condemnation. Or anything else like that it's simply -- The lower costs and domestically in terms of money in the -- there. There soldiers. And in terms. You know they've they've withdrew from Gaza in 2005 -- very good reason they just don't want responsibility for happened there. And yet they've they've. I think. -- this is an unstated thing I would rather have Egypt take responsibility for -- doesn't have responsibility for either. So there they are very I would imagine very wary of actually. Doing that thing going in full board with all the costs that would entail domestically. In both in terms of life in it and money. And don't just are like long term implications of being responsible in the -- being responsible for for that which they don't wanna be responsible for. Ditto over the weekend. Or rather vicious argument between. Anti Israelis and I was roots. And and I told one in the group traditional -- the -- and regardless of who -- for. What will Libya how moss what would be any of entities. Israel has said they have to recognize those isn't legitimate state. They have to renounce terrorism. And they have to recognize all the agreements between Israel and the bells -- and perhaps do you see that ever happened. Not not in the immediate future in terms of months recognizing those conditions mean. You get the Palestinian Authority and president -- who have been negotiating for their state with Israel for. In the most recent round. With secretary Kerry. Earlier this year. I don't see it happening in the near future. With Hamas in there not. There there. -- -- -- That fact that they want to replace what is now Israel the policy territories. One state that's Islamic theocracy so. They're just not in that position if we can have in mind and that might have been -- are heading forward. In the long term before this place on the fighting for now. But they're not really. A group that. Agencies to sort of fundamental compromises that that would entail that. That the EPA science and attempted to negotiate so. I just don't see them doing two. You know it and you know if it were successful agreement they beside buying a great deal because you have something in the hand rather than ideal hypothetical. -- -- And state that most weren't. Where is actually have a Palestinian state so that would change the equation but not in the near future. Peter thank you so much -- thrown in the expert to use. That would reduce or blue -- bill caller and say OK we got resolution -- who. -- -- -- good. It took over WL word got news prince Miller and more coming up next. On the wind we've done any number of drugs shows on the Israeli laws. Gaza -- War of that going on end up like a pretty much covered -- the water broadened and always will be. Try to give you one half hour the liberal B two and one have power with the conservative view ago we try to give -- publications that represent liberals and conservatives so. But a couple of nights ago. I was reading -- Or homework on others on -- submerged shall ozone. And as he crosses interviewing der Spiegel in German. And the person they were interviewing Newt who goes by the name argue baldness and as a director is ruled blogs the director of is ruled in world security. Between 2005. And 2011. And -- over -- did I didn't go to the back of the article through to read the identity. They just use his name in the article. To order -- -- and this was a liberal publication. Interviewing somebody that was island liberal and so that this from very confusing to Ozal. We go to -- experts and we have Jim Phillips who's given -- some of his silencing research fellow for Middle Eastern putters at The Heritage Foundation. Jim welcome to show appreciated to -- -- The deficit is I mean from the very beginning. I had to go back and read this again. Of the der -- people as discs and I don't about it. What is the goal of this is really helped you. Operation. And he says it is in equal parts action for sake of action. An aggressive posturing. Does that surprise you that a military men would say that more Emeka. Well I think -- mr. -- in the news what do very dovish. Maybe toward -- -- -- of the Israeli spectrum she's she's a longtime critic of prime minister Netanyahu and I think she is critical comments are ordering -- more. Netanyahu Burgundy in Israel establishment. Itself does he also says that. Israel didn't have a -- acceptable. In two Gaza. Once the rockets started flying. But he also says it and and visiting should be directed overall with there the reproach. You should talking about the three Israeli team -- kidnapped and killed. A -- didn't want the war at first -- there. -- said that Hamas. Political bureau which taken totally by surprised. And was not coordinator or directed -- and. There are authors of struggle within the bonds between the political wing in the military -- And although Hamas operatives on the west spending -- still suspected of taking that. That these three Israeli teenagers but it may not have been coordinated with the top leadership. -- -- first two months or purchases are still on the run who were wanted to in regard to that kidnapping. But it's true -- talk to -- with the organization may have been surprised. -- -- One movies almost inevitable. Our results of the home loss far -- Our programs national unity is that Hamas operatives were or given more. Freedom to operate on the west bank and as soon as that happens they took action -- kidnapped Israelis. A one point various groups can question. And he basically -- nod -- his exact words that Netanyahu. The defense minister. -- chiefs that they've -- in what we're going to go. Is -- in play in the operation at all. Is rove was dragged into the crisis and pushed into the crisis. By Israeli. Or right. What it was still pulled into the crisis by local -- and some even more radical Palestinian groups that are firing rockets out of Garza. But I think it is trim that -- Israel -- immortal and on the ground. Are but after ten days of bombing. One mosque was stool launching. Large -- numbers of rockets at Israel. And after several tasks through this extensive tunnel system that Hamas has developed. Israel we spoke they had notre tours but to go on the ground. A disk and -- reports there is is rule. Is known instrument in the hands of Hamas and not the other way around Hamas. The care of its population suffers under Soviet -- Because of population is covering totally anyway. And from laws that really care about the wrong casualties on -- if that if that -- how to how do you -- Started -- I think that is true because. It's it's ironic that the Israelis to hear more horrible protecting. Palestinian civilians than Hamas does. Intractable. When the Israelis conductor and -- exercises which. Did you first call people building. That houses or Hamas. Target and hotel -- that doesn't return covering every launch market. That bounces off the room. Without exploding bullet makes a big sound. Our whole mosque has told Palestinian civilians to stay in the homes despite these warnings. Are and their -- cents of every his rule the can only do so much to move forward to Palestinians. Casualties amongst civilians and maps the fuel that Hamas uses to. Bottle -- fuel greater hostility against Israel and sides are so booked. Also seeks to vote. In -- Other Arabs and Muslims to attack Israel trying to change the balance of power away. Our lives think of first brick. A few -- going to. Formatting it about -- is an article I've stumbled on in their -- gold the other German publication. Where the former director of Israel's internal security. And -- six year period. Gave an interview that at least for me it was surprising our -- Says he's doubles should military man or just the fact that a military man in the midst of this war. Would give the interview we did very surprising. And Jim Phillips senior research fellow for Middle Eastern -- Heritage Foundation. Gives us more background and expertise. Right purpose. Maybe it's only be a bit of founded. Very thing. -- Israeli military man it was director of rules and internal security. Between 2005. And 2010. Given an interview to der Spiegel magazine in Germany. And if you read did you -- -- you were talking to. Some liberals that is anti Israel. And two veterans them as we've we currently have one expert on problem. Liberal organization we have Jim -- to themselves and Richards hello Middle Eastern -- Heritage Foundation. Dead at one point years he says. That. It would take. Two years it took over the Gaza Strip and get -- that the tunnels and weapons and depots in the ammunition. And from a military point of view it's council. Do you see that happen. -- very surprised if that happens because. Although it's possible to do it in military terms the cost in terms. Of the Israeli military losses Palestinians civilian losses. And damage to meet infrastructure Gaza would be tremendous. And Israel will be left holding the band. We're having to -- four days ago welfare. Or one point -- more than one point seven million Palestinians in Gaza. And -- -- be -- economic burden Israel pulled out of Gaza completely -- in 2005. Because it was. -- -- enthusiastically boat to maintaining. Security in Gaza. But now to go back in and opera and this tremendous. Hamas infrastructure would be very costly. At one point. This student says. When people lose hope for an improvement in their suit towards like can go off a radical. Gaza Strip is the best example that. All the conditions or there of four and the explosion. So loaded tons of my life I was at these junction. Where I can almost do you live at -- fingered. What -- an explosion looked -- it it feels like the were already has been an explosion. Yeah I don't I think growth. The there are already viewed as you say -- party has been tremendous explosion in Gaza but. I think one of the problems with Hamas is that. Like your old Soviet Communist Party which used to have an expression. The worse the better. From policies that the worse things get for Palestinians. The better chips for Palestinian -- Radical groups such -- -- months because. Palestinian civilians are increasingly -- Cedar -- his war experience. They want revenge against Israel ever reduce. A mosque greater -- public support which has been lagging in recent years because of the tremendous economic and political persuasions that Hamas terrorists. Force or arms -- virtual it's hard Korean target Israeli policies. Good little bit different director mark portions and at one point. This and says unfortunately we've filled in past -- deliver. A total build a debilitating blow against the law. And that you think that our country Vietnam. Afghanistan and Iraq. We failed to deliver a total blow. And though looking back global war to World War I and throw up -- -- through the world. Always assumed war war as you go in the and you drive the -- in -- deed to their knees. And then you force there. Image. FC your image when the region and whether -- Germany. Why didn't that happen anymore why do we fight these feels like Nick Cage match. To where we Gordon get bloody day in and lose a couple of TP go back to our corners lick our wounds in order duo all over again. More than one of the differences speech. Between Iraq and Afghanistan than in World War II lowest in world -- Kim would be public's of Germany and Japan. To support. Those -- aggressive and hostile regimes. I have -- therefore we held out for a it's unconditional surrender and it was clear that. You know based weren't had been defeated. And needed to the world. It'll -- put into our government to it's because they want to see US. Forces withdraw. On and therefore Germany and Japan. Are came out of will work to his current pacifist. Although missions from the two US. But in Iraq can -- in Afghanistan. Are more recently. So many of the people most countries were posed to regimes and went to war work. In Iraq's Saddam Hussein was extremely unpopular outside of the Sunni minority which is only your. It'll probably 2530%. Of the country. The Kurds and the -- All of which made up most of rock are treated -- regime console when will we went in -- -- -- themselves Serbs are defeated. Are they have been very didn't see your themselves. Necessarily as liberated by it's because they're in fully trust stops. And so that was a very awkward kind of relationships there and in Afghanistan. Our -- we defeated the tolerable on. With the most Afghans already were post in the column -- but there were incapable. Or defeat here. Are there and -- -- pushed out of Afghanistan and unfortunately. It was given support by Pakistan. Which saw. As useful allies. Against India. Especially wants the US which room. So that follow bombed tunnel that -- wounds and what over the border to Pakistan and it worked in and out waiting to come back. We're everything you just said and that could lead in the kind of war action pleased action on our -- because too. Meet all the parameters huge -- just not gonna. That's not gonna happen in. Post fight the wars -- I think it would have been better off. Instead of trying to transform law in roster in the Afghanistan into. You know it knew Germany and new Japan. Institutional order sites. And satisfied -- You know. Not necessarily transforming them into western style democracy sport being satisfied with. Some carnival representative government that. On what to stand. As allies with SARS against. Our enemies in the Middle East and Afghanistan against Apollo bomb. It Joomla appreciate your expertise in the time. -- thank you. Get a break come and ride back -- and said the deal applied the -- What do you think. If somebody. Offered you more. A few days with the Tesla Roadster -- with that it's it's. Very expensive all battery powered call. And they're selling them like -- -- -- and the technology of the of the man that owns Tesla. Has decided to let the technology to let anybody but the ones. And I'll always wondered. Would take courage. To to drive. You know reasonable distance in a battery powered car. -- -- -- WIRED Magazine who drove over a thousand miles. And the -- counted bloody gloves like. We're gonna talk to an editor of the magazine -- you -- that -- -- -- funded interesting and fun. Some fun coming up next in the pink. Double Abdel biggest celebrity -- -- 53 of them Garland rob -- of with the broad common right.