WWL>Topics>>7-30-14 11:10am Garland: on lawyers who don't practice

7-30-14 11:10am Garland: on lawyers who don't practice

Jul 30, 2014|

Garland talks with Marc Luber of J.D. Careers Out There and Casey Berman of Leave Law Behind about why so many lawyers choose not to practice.

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Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)

Because over the years reduce our secure roads -- touch on the same thing the eased the economy. Politics sports you name it to whatever a dual -- -- always looking for the so I'd like something that in -- may be something we have heard before. And I would submit is one of them. The Atlantic is public -- -- look at all the breaking news. Looking for subject for the show and I stumble on the tournaments. I talked to some people that know about -- The -- says the only job with the industry devoted to helping people quit. They're talking about warriors. -- has said we. Talked Europe producers -- student and -- -- it. Jim we get some people in this article lucky enough to get more Cooper founder of GD careers. There. -- gave birth month for a billion. -- if you don't mind you're you're familiar with the story you quote go to London. I'm Magruder on this kind of be in order tuned to get a better flavor of the story the opening sentence says. Well for a masseuse who consistently break at the top open and happy profession lists. Those by starting salaries hundreds or 2000 dollars. -- prone to experience significant. Yearly associate attrition is that true. Yeah that's absolutely true and birth -- stated that this that -- done in the nineties and it shows that lawyers and about three point six time -- depression and other occupational groups. And -- US national ivory Madison has -- did get steady. And yeah I think you're good at under Hitler's -- and I can tell you that there's a lot of attrition from. On the firms that -- put his salary that they an article talking about it are that being brand name corporate -- and have opted Oliver. America and you know it it international landscape as well. So it's not like I'll lawyers -- changed to under 60000 -- that really eat the elite lawyers who graduate in that world. Buys it is true that there's a lot of attrition from that well. What would see every -- in from salary to get them. I'm at bat at -- Firm it will be debt it would be around -- -- -- -- oil a. Just -- nationwide -- seem to figure they have breed true book kids make when the hours officially become a -- You know -- which -- -- number units is significantly lower than I mean they're people who start about it. You know 3040000. A year. Small car. Did did you range huge range but definitely significantly. -- 160000 year. It was at that -- in the beginning with the quotes was more Zoellick rear window and has please sold for a position. Dedicated to helping people get out of law. Telus you came about as -- and end. How and why you formed group company. Well I'm I'm not -- myself and I don't you might not agree to work in alternative. Areas. Outside a lot I concluded I went to law school to be in the music industry told that the best background or the music. And one thing that want to let beat you in Portland it suggests that and you're very -- that I'm. It that it and -- in the -- -- records. Have been able. To go. Yet to -- -- like a lot cool for that reason and learned. During law school while working at Summers -- the record label New York City. That practicing while -- was informed me I was doing contracts and it just felt like paperwork to -- -- moving widget from point a to point B. That would be part of the creative. So I decided then you'd like -- in -- ways. An all related to other people who had been seen skills that background and wanted to do other things. And when I left the music industry as it was melting down in the early 2000 I became head -- lawyers. And we're dealing -- Moving lawyers from job -- job -- and -- -- deleted -- so much frustration. Among the people who are beating big firms area and you either go to you may be in house opportunities in house corporate company. Or move to smaller firms that they -- have a different kind of like style. And I think a lot of people didn't want to admit that they wanted to -- law. But they refused scared -- know what -- do -- -- never learned about what the term possibilities are other uses of their degree. His uncle that really keep that. And Barea these are people who bottom vote for years is well be a lawyer an Indonesian better future they'll -- and you know lawyer. So all the and he hit the wall it's a scary thing because you think of yourself it's one thing for ever in all of a sudden now. You're thinking of yourself -- May be something else. So I wondered how people -- there are so many. And debt but let you might creating the -- game. Finding ways to help people who have -- guilt that it's great -- and a great mind. But don't like supplying all the means to the practice of law. Very intrusive. Our book take our first break. Young people out there a moment ago there are you in Los who do you think at buffalo screwed you just become award. I think we've got a really good reason for you to think in the think tank. Give -- -- questions comments we've got the experts to Sig zero. One that needs somebody told free anywhere in the country 866 -- dollar generally it's severing. We're talking about the only job with the industry devoted to helping people quit. Lloyd. Double up. Return get a better situation Dingell about a problem that a proposal Wear rubber stolen headline that said. -- job within industry devoting to helping people quit and they were talking about lawyer. And we -- them people who were involved in that industry mark Bloomberg founder of -- -- the careers. Out there. Julia -- -- to give more into the of this story itself and that and the problem itself. Do you able to businesses as something that happens often. Or do you work with Warner to three people over a longer time. Numbers aren't that -- I know there's there's there's numbers it's not that much salon period of time basically. We provided secret that there we have -- It's a whole collection. Of videos where I'd pretend that McKinney -- and in your view. Different lot -- accomplice blogger at all in and out of law who talk about what they do so bad. -- you her to learn right from the -- not it's really light to you that your body created view wired city. And some of the people we have York actually practicing law but other people are totally doing different things we have. A sports agent a lobbyist we have people who work in. Compliance. We have people who work in business development we we try to -- all the different things that you can do with the law degree it and let you learn not to -- through like that and how do you -- yes you actually cage or steel that. In and break into that world as a locker. What a year whether your precious school or you're transferring out there are so I do private coaching in addition that. So little impact on the web site or something different sometime that the combination of you know they want they want to subscribe to the video and talk to me. Some people just wanna talk to me and ambulance don't really want me about this what the video he would they can learn from the other. That we have on there and and they take it from there. And troops -- one of the view as sentences in the reports it's. The problem can begin with the towards the go to law school which is often made regions have nothing to do with the actual practicing law. -- grew very often the dough ball choices of people who will know what to do that true. As absolutely -- so many people go to law school. -- because they think well I'll keep being a student could -- out into the real world keeping -- student. And might as well good article other people go to the Stanley pressure look at and -- prestigious job. When you grow up he'll become a doctor -- And Lotta people say well like you know I can't I can't -- science or lie under whatever I get a -- that kind of a deep ball behind you know being a lawyer they haven't registered what our job there like Richard from law school at like. But they apply -- kind of why I mean merchant law school and debt and have to face reality later when they have. And offered a job that doesn't fit them because they never. It -- took the time to figure it out before diving into the pool you know so yes it absolutely a real situation. Where things are wrote a very big Joseph assume analogue agree. We'll open a lot of different doors and you said you became lawyers get into the music industry. If somebody gets a law degree and -- That they don't like or can the law itself -- old world like working and law firm. Does that -- -- to open doors to other industries. The reality is that he. Doesn't open -- doors unless you make it open doors. And a lot of people think it just automatically open doors are one of the people cannot live any. And it would be in the music news. I but it is an open all the -- -- a parallel to -- them a lot of greens you know the vehicle part in the job will be handed to me and it. That's not reality and you know -- big weapons expert needle match and tonight in coached a lot of other people about that. On the reality is that if luck is agree treaty background with alike great skill sets and a lot of leadership skills it's kind of like. If you look at Europe and that would go to a military program in America or someone who played college sports. They're building in meetings guilt that they -- building great leadership skills. Think it goes with the law school. -- -- because you have the skills just because you bring that special something people don't need an employer know -- players. You gotta -- -- and today. And let you know that you've got that special and you have to be a particularly what is -- bringing the tables toward the employer. Regardless of what type of training and background hat and stood still that it comes from law school is incredibly helpful to a lot of different pat. It's -- the other figure out what those things are and how to articulate them to that you can get hired due to work. And then grow and bring that -- set to to work for you. Our campus recruiting warriors. Is there are a lot of that in does that sway young kids to become lawyers that. Really don't know what they want to do does that happen implement. Yeah that that is what happens is that big bird is the big corporate -- about earlier that it big by. They come the big school. And date on your crew there future class. Yeah first yours does it. And so what happens if you get mr. Mercer school. And they -- -- you in the fall at your second year so it's starting right now people meeting that school. Right now at this school -- about to start. And over the next month there's so it -- happening where the second year law students will be meeting with these firms. And nice fat salaries will be dangled in front of them then -- more threat this summer after your second year. And if you do well you'll have a job after you graduate. And you know these jobs are -- great job for some people but for a lot of people -- not. And for people who don't know much about what it means to practice slot today art tightly into a pack. You know book is likely to get them. And so one of the reasons they're diving it because it's prestigious to work -- these that these -- their -- brand -- firms efficiency offices and big money floating around there -- legal issues that we read about -- papers -- MTV news we hear you talk about radio program. There they're dealing with the Chinese corporations in America that. It is exciting. Work and prestigious work and he's well and people at -- On the other. And hit it in the article. People's -- change in the acting like crack. That being issued to people aren't you getting that -- grade school their school well well actually what connects. Stay that the that. That paying job at the moment -- -- they want change. And when it comes to campus. It is like you know you're gonna chase. The people can't be it equipment written you showed that. Kinda open. Happened it it. Very suggests the nature of the situation the job -- the people. People flock to them not knowing really what it is they're flocking to. There's of course the group peer pressured the average video chasing it he think well they're chasing it I'm Smart actress -- over there actually it is chuck. We have on people chasing them don't even know that -- A couple of things come to mind when -- him -- and do. You -- provide videos. Oh lord your with the experience large that court orders that are doing fine and everything in this story. -- a lot of people graduate from law school don't really know what lawyers actually do. Job number loss who used to waiting it would seem like. You're telling -- -- would be part of a curriculum. And and blueberries statement of some of them. Don't actually know what lawyers do that call into question how it's being. Would it take you to be like that -- because I'll. Because -- school that -- That's the attitude problem. Yet. I'm reaching out well for that and I and they are several schools. -- are providing speakers that players should -- -- that the union can access everything for pre. And have free subscriptions. -- Look what happened DNA budget crisis straight -- it there lets people mine. To law school and has been. In a very long time and yet the numbers. Dipped drastically. And they're just eight years in turn a corner and that is that these they're gonna start looking a little on here for the school. Because it basically they'd look at how many people are fine. -- -- Pan so I think it went up by half a percent to 1% something like that this year over last year which means that the future. Applicants do you know that there should be a bigger class of future applicants but the numbers are our part now. And -- schools are having less money to put into resources like. They're career centers. It is neck and back to the push -- or the law schools doing their job. I would say no. But if -- think -- this is the civic tradition is that it. It is not. The view failure is just the way the law school system is always work is if you. So get more high end the year. And getting people learning. Critically -- -- you learn it speak read and write Michael's lawyers basically the way we say it but -- It -- is that on exercise in building critical thinking skills. And the problem. I've always -- well in school on Tuesday that it is ridiculous you only -- and not incorporated. Realities not incorporate what -- review the life. To apply. At least have someone come in to a classroom. And explain. Reality don't make them put Auburn career centers have to pick up flack that's not happening faster. So no law schools don't -- what medical school in medical school he spent two years. Bernie every politician in Moscow and you know the -- I think resilient. And then spent years going to rotation where you get to be kind of doctor for a certain period. So in the end the two year to -- we know what type of residency the money going puke. And then I'm actually doctor you are well trained and I'm excited to be kicking up your career in. The past that you -- -- -- a lot of knowledge and education. -- totally different it's the equivalent. The first two years in medical school and then being thrown out into the real world and you know being told about. Marred Duke's there are very interesting subject I've projected the times whom would you have a great day. All right double be obligated seventy moral five to reopen. I always say that. What I'm doing homework with the big shows where the Butte Middle East for the Buick on the for the huge occasion. Where the legislature. I'm always looking for. Sidelined storage. That are in pursuing -- -- breakup. The big big subjects who we. Talk about so often on the show and I've found more. Atlanta ago website it is one of my favorite whipped excuse to -- Maturing over the show. And this one definitely attracted my attention Hedlund said the only job with the industry devoted to helping people quit. Longer. It's. I've literally had read the -- -- Miller got into it it was so at least to me real revelation. The young people out there and pupil in the wall. Industry. Find the centers and Gibbs called column is questioned we've got. We have an expert on Purcell -- and noble and this Howard to that talk about this. And we have -- Berman. Who will would leave the wall behind. Casey welcomed show or appreciated. Well thank you I'm honored to be invited think -- match. Leave him all behind a bush assumed you moral or were on lawyers in the in the -- drew developed leave wall behind. Yes. I am all the lawyers and Hugh that school in particular law school there in. Great -- 99 in real briefly -- -- all week in tax or services there are graduated. I I -- -- a law and I left the -- we knew about being at graduate. Them. -- we need people lawyers are -- grad or law student who didn't like racquetball I'm a bit ago goat cheese eaten. Speaking god help you with -- and -- announced. You know nine making this speech and talked about what -- -- we needed a career and speaking Syria but that by people there that if -- -- -- there. That relief well behind -- -- it questions for now the work that you elect. Real pain here lawyers are looking into that so we keep up that now. And I started the law in into the nine in 2010 and what you people -- -- at its -- huge. Emailed every day in Iraq so we can get it to erupt in our. Aired it is this a problem that it's just some problem with the fractional few of lawyers. Or is this something where you've got a pretty good number of clients and in you see a growing problem. I mean they had that problem and see a lot of people are. Satisfied. That they -- I think -- like -- but it exact. -- finally realized that. Restrictions were acquired at an intern. In alignment with what they're good and at some pretty op rate. In the radio talk show those to get in quickly being gay unions -- Action right if you think. You need the job description. You know adjust to it and it shall want it and do great. It's funny that attorneys when he -- the job to the very job that. Critical in meat eating it is being at the cereal -- the word document could not much. Interaction with other people you know lot of -- lord what they're good or urged to rank enjoyment. They don't you a lot of them to be an attorney. They use the skills that we like as much confidence and we needed that extra people what they really like to deal. And what the job requires. -- a lot still on the table and -- not happy. And our legalistic of purse for -- just georgians were would -- Berman. Who. A company called lead all bond and in this part of his show we're doing. Owned and -- revelation. I certainly did know about it. But there's a growing industry. For the industry. Of getting warriors hold of the legal industry. Segment. Called Scotland's 2601 -- WWW. Exactly where Lincoln about a headline. The headlines bill -- job within industry devoted to helping people quit and it's an industry. Devoted to helping employers square -- the law. We have book -- -- -- and with -- -- all of leave wall -- Case you and the article the brought all of this to me. Their -- a statement says there. Lot of young people going to law as the default. Choice. Bitter and what to do and Mamas and daddies to become a doctor -- lawyer and -- Federal treasury positions in the golden boy is that true that the. There is a lot. I mean you know how added there -- a lot of critical thought. Around going into. I'm a lot of people don't. Release the critically. You know I'm let me. In her job -- did -- On. It. I spoke with attorneys. -- law student to. You know made the -- a lawyer. Kirk. And so -- you know all go to law school they were thinking critically about outlines. -- I was area out now with a fine. Two the law school. And I think that you know there's not a lot of line really under meaning what will use. A big ego doable job market began to. Huckabee in security in job the broad. But the real important questions is really. Good that is -- in line with what you would. Think there are in themselves. -- -- -- -- And and wounded. Into ever side from. Is that a lot of people -- from those who really sure -- -- -- you do. In the Nazis the growing number of rooms like -- wars that have. Videos. In -- different lawyers wanted to put one senator's success -- about the pros and cons there were and it makes me wonder if if law schools are doing a very good job number one. Preparing young people for what are -- -- and number two educated them enough to handle it once again. Did it to glory point I think you're right and you know mark Lugar who is quoted in the article -- agree like GT re out there. -- what a lot of media around and it and it thinking in the article that you know law school really talk a very theoretical. I'll wave but there isn't the -- negotiation by actual I would there. And the relief it. Do a lot of we work all your work at you know low income clinic and. I meet are an opportunity to get out they're actually retreat -- -- the -- law student undone at the time -- great great work being done in the right into the danger should give do you and you know I don't indicate -- every corner of the accident reluctant but there -- -- double portion of law student who went gradually. -- really haven't which Kosher the regal life. What it takes to be an attorney and practicing law as well running the business law firm where solo act. So we had -- liberal and pro video percent power and -- and he mentioned that. Law school numbers. Or slightly down over the last few years. Our Melinda yields. In pursuit of becoming lords. You know I think it is -- I think many are we that it might be me well currently the past generations and that. You know -- needs to hear her you know LA law where. A lot about. And I think that you know and Allegheny. And I can speak to record in her Jewish ghetto in -- or add to -- -- you know -- -- different types of jobs out there and I will have to work around 51020 years ago. On site that we think that there is there a different take a lot I think we're at a crossroads where the allure of lost the ability. Proposed prompt a lot of money this -- that goes with it is still there. I think there's kind of a wake up. On battle I get a lot of emails from people who first year and lost all or change. -- Or you know told me about making it. There's really patient -- -- -- now going to people who are out of idol which I think it. Have knowledge lack of -- in Anna mania is an island in between Ichiro that with. Kicking me and my optic lit just by the law state and might it will -- more critically. You know that being said I think they're all our law school -- (%expletive) for many people enable -- -- -- Think the problem is that a lot of people playing a law school who haven't are critically about it and unfortunately they graduate that you may go that route. On the job and -- are seventeen years later than one Whitman. And I'm not work -- -- -- Wind somebody -- view what what do you do what they get what is the here when they learn. Yet so you know you -- I wrote an article or above the law dot com fortunately a legal industry via web site. It for their career center and and really how I look at it briefly -- The beating. The first thing -- talk about money from the people talk about it of course but money lap around the league maybe that you. Really instead of having -- back. Should. Cane league. Do you need the job that kind -- like really like Iraq or a lot of people can. Decide. -- and didn't see many years. Even if I imagine -- anything they'll at a barbecue if they were -- or something -- indicated an art and it shall try to be so. We we talk about that. But they're definitely unique genius what he'll treat you really really good. Let restraint and formed what job it will you do get on the -- opposed to capture on you -- so. The port that is is will not -- years. Many -- there for taking risk there -- agreement that they leave their frequent their Randall. We kind of look back and then at the beginning there you wanna keep -- treaty mean changing a lot of people doing their job. -- management chief operation offer. Content marketing. Our research to keep it really being like an intern thing you think that is what you eat and get into it -- get -- -- Talk about yourself and -- an -- and talked to industry and I. I feel that. All worked really pounding the pavement feeling good about your your feeling that they'll strange I'm really good opportunity will that. Introducing -- to bring him one of our callers. You Julian you were on with the occasion Berkman. -- -- Yeah same. I am an attorney and I am I am alive and that lead and the practice in the turnout like that about. It may be some time ago and and today. Everything. You guys on on on line in saint. Exactly. -- Describe let me went into the -- -- in. I graduated in like we didn't really know would do would be. While. The -- -- -- but the -- paint it pink and it. -- -- -- -- -- -- About American male. You. Like to just shoot right over these different pain and ended up in the sole practitioner about in years. And managers in all of hypocrisy and it's a game immediately. And stole them. Scope of practice court. Stole money from out of the evidence and potential to go -- it I've had a problem we will you know. Laws laws a little scary when you issued a close student. Oh man yeah it happened right down actually and -- indictment and judge but it happened to me and come -- -- it happened who did this to. But you know it's it's no longer to -- Well. Like and in my life and lap right now -- real estate broker you know the amount of -- you know they do it all stressed by as it does not view it. You know it it might -- a -- party ever. In being in you know in in in my practice in the you know you -- It made the year I mean it's you know acting -- -- -- You -- is you know a lot. And real quick a lot of people -- on and you being really huge. It meeting here sell -- around like that treatment and he don't even be back. On themselves and I think that you look in the comments. Are all there's a lot off the bigotry and make a lot. Via the and really what we see a lot of a lot of the war can -- it. I'm small practitioners and they're in really. Kate treated true pleasure to have Bulent acute withdrawal of fascinating subject you've agreed -- it. -- -- -- All of those almost all over is at his phone number of these do nothing congress. -- know how would that do nothing. Cost us. We're gonna find to what do nothing congress and a do nothing electorate only about 15% of this. Boating so for this year. Well let cost. To the community at -- -- what this week called thing to Garland Robinette. Double -- obligated celebrity AM 1053. At.