Will worry -- the oldest child in your family the youngest or somewhere in the middle. How do you think your birth order affected your life or affected your relationships with your siblings. It's a fascinating question that we're putting to the experts. But we definitely want you to be part of this disk discussion so please give us -- call 2601870. Joining us here in the studio to talk about birth order and sibling rivalry. Are Jenny Athens with a parenting center. Good morning Trish -- super parent that's a couple of as is Amy drew another super parent. And Lisa Phillips of the parenting center and also a great. You all are the authorities I just I'm fascinated by this or I really -- of the whole issue of sibling rivalry but let's start more with. -- or so tell me about your children and how you look at them. And then even perhaps yourself where you were in your family. Not all -- And -- happen well. I am the youngest of four children myself and I am married to do. Just perfectly wonderful firstborn male. And together we have three children. Perfectly wonderful first born male and -- Wonderful rambunctious. Second born middle child currently sporting in -- broken arm. And then a baby girl whose it is and really the off. So you're the first born is like your husband he really he uses them. He is the new rule follow where he is responsible. And far far beyond his years. He's just a Smart helpful can't do tries so hard to do right saying and and please the adults that's why we say he was. He was born mentally it's you with wa. Girl by the old soul. Wholesale OK Trish. Well I was the baby of the family and and to. You know I'm listening to what you think about the first born my first born -- that people pleaser she's grown. To be independent you know she's eighteen years old now on has coming -- I do remember that went to Asia anger at. She would -- began doing appear responsible. At very responsible easygoing end. You know just an easy breezy -- And you're younger is takes a different role Alia -- she went. She they're very opposite children she is. You know very opinionated very strong very deep. I think of -- -- -- old soul and that she has a lot of and respective spots. That maybe my older one doesn't have the same. Look on life and as far as it being as -- But. They're very different. There they get along their best friends. One -- worth thinking about birth order at the parenting center. One of the first issues that comes up is that the birth of the second child and the effect that that has on the first -- and that's it. An aspect of birth order that we talk a lot about and I certainly saw play out in my house. If your first child is. Three or four or five or even six they've had all of those years of of attention. And and security and confidence building up. And from their parents but for younger children and one and a half or two year olds to have debate become. -- can have a real effect on all the relationships and household we we -- -- -- the -- drowning and I remember in my hands when my second and came common. My first job was about twenty months. And she's strong her first sentence together and it was. Please make the baby go way. I think about. We'll have the Fed added that the tricky thing about birth order that first child has is the only one that you know that has the opportunity to have that I'm divided attention and and some of that expectation and stress and learning curve that goes along that so a lot of times people find that second or third or fourth children. Have a a little less of that. Kind of attendance if you have a third child is the second child saying take the baby home. Said it depends a lot on the kind of attention that they've gotten right if they if you do and stepping stones like so many people do in their Ollie -- and a half to two years apart. And probably that third child is is not having such an issue of the deep -- because they're already sharing. And with the first time -- are probably. Looking at it generally you're less likely to see it. It's important keep in mind sometimes when parents call us when they're going through that stage where they had a baby and there are. Very taken back by acts and fielders it's important to remember. That that is really it's not indicative of the future relationship that they're going. With their -- -- -- -- first just managers packet. It's it can be very unsettling to hear your older child thinking it's and the baby back now hi. But it's very very normal. -- didn't think that. How child responds to a new born has a lot to do with the preparation you get that child -- child will be coming home you can company that. And you say. And babies could cry alive. And -- -- losing -- husband and I used humor with that plan however and we laughed about that and then as long as you bring them and into the nurturing aspect. Of the newborn and make them feel they're part of it. I think that alleviate some of the stress that goes on when you bring -- cable. You know I've certainly seen ten million teacher action on a big sister on the Big Brother so now they have a role in behind something. Even -- listen interloper has arrived but expect ambivalence about the role. I guess key on the part off and I think that's -- group king and Brian were so close to me why it's certainly going to be different five years eight years right and my first few are on this for years apart in mind that your first line. We had honest man month -- second child and you know. He could go put on his and episode. Sesame Street by the time has been the other to I thought it was great I thought we were so. Can't teach children. And then we had that there. Two days and just spent three years younger than the middle and ends how much smaller than baby. And you know at the difference between a three year old and a four world for us at least -- India. And the three year old did -- adjustments to use his little sister line. Very quickly found them up and became the big other protector. Honest immediately while the first born chests. Whipping his own life now. You know doesn't care that I mean right -- it all plays and it's that birth order. And difference in ages and the preparation. And then the one thing that we haven't added as the idea of temperament and an people's personalities just. I'm just tell them respond differently I can tell you. And my house I was the middle child but no one knows that maybe somebody is listening and they'll be reminded ago. -- -- older than her. But even when we were kids that somebody asked. And Jenny is the oldest my brother 78 returned to them and say -- older than every one. While and you would have been out of the middle child that -- did not take that role -- obviously just kind of taken over and Bristol that way. -- I doubt that's what I wanna talk about next we're gonna take a break and I hope anybody is listening want to talk about their birth order any effect on their life. 260187. Day. But not let's talk about your grown up now. What is that order like stay with the sun Angela -- -- that you will. Well we're talking about birth order and ultimately we're going to be talking about sibling rivalry and -- definitely Barbara we're gonna get too but I. -- -- reintroduce -- -- Evans and Trish Hoffman Amy drew -- -- Lisa Phillips thank you all their great parents and several of them work at the parenting center. And we pick it up on OK so now you have your children and their birth order. Or yourself in your birth order. With your own siblings. And as kids. That order was something didn't maintain itself. As you grew older. In two teenage bill and then into adulthood. Or did rolls shift. Yet in in our hats are some things our families our -- stayed very much the same when. Anything happens and whether it's planning a family vacation and where and my mom's been ill now managing that illness. And you can see if the three of us are sitting somewhere the two heads go and turn the Aggies seemed. Padilla there and it's not because they're not helpful and it's not because they don't have impact. It's because I'm -- -- -- always been unhappy when our parents divorced and we were. Was a long process that we were in school aged middle school age kind of time period. I think I was the only one who is that it. And it wasn't again it wasn't one about the three of us it was but I am the first one to talks why bother. Producers have anything. -- issue where the baby of the family. I think. The roles changed my middle sister two. Seem to be the weakest link you know cried every time it -- thunderstorm blah blah blah. Anyway has become really. The staple. Anything that it's significant that happens now she happens to be in Florida where my family is except I'm the only one who's not there. But she really took on the role and she is I take actually much more solid than I am because I get very emotional and she's more even keel. And that intrusion. You were the baby if your family. Of how many a Fuller and so are you still the baby of the family. It well. I don't know that my siblings -- yeah. That's very interesting maybe we should give them a call. And what about -- I have younger sibling Hampshire it's amstel big box -- this department I don't I don't. You know it's -- I have a sister -- two years older but early in the game. I took go up and and not that she's very Smart she very capable and senator senator. And but I don't think if if anybody we met in our lives at any age they always thought I was deal -- -- and it it was always interesting to me intimate and it. America in Barbara we're gonna get you in just a second we're gonna wait for our wonderful board director. How does all of this influence than the sibling rivalry. Is always the lead guy beating up on the other ones. No there is a lot more to the sibling relationship than simply part border. And there's really interesting. Research on this topic -- Lori Cramer from the University of Illinois. And she never a couple of things that go into a strong sibling relationship one of the things was. On how well children develop their social emotional skills. Because and help the things that parents can do to encourage that particularly for younger children particularly when children are under eight. That kids to learn some skills in conflict negotiations. And things like that. On and managing impulse control and strong feelings. They often were able to have a better relationship with their -- the stronger closer relationship as they got older. So you know there's that part of in the parents can't have a role in that imparted that means as parents we have to sometimes. Think of other ways to. Intervene with our kids were always jumping in and being the judge in the jury and settling every dispute. That doesn't mean that we completely back off and we say -- you guys work out particularly if one child being really aggressive with the other child or. Really hurtful or abusive. But at the same time we we help them learn scales that okay -- to people who have a problem what are we gonna do to solve -- -- and kind of talk them through this state step by step. And then as they get older they can do without us they can do it on their. So that's a big part of the other thing she found in her research was that children who tended to have good relationships with adults with their siblings. Had what she called net positive effect of their sibling relationship. Which meant that. It wasn't that they didn't have conflicts with their siblings growing up a lot of times as parents we feel concerned when we see conflicts between our kids but the end goal is not necessarily no conflict because that's not realistic. But kids -- -- good relationships. They had a net positive effect because the conflicts were they were able to resolve and also. They had a lot of good experiences with their -- has a lot of positive memories of playing together and doing things together and sit with parents we can be mindful. Having a strong family relationship -- engaging in activities encouraging market to cooperate and do fun things together that that can really pay off as well. Very very important and you're all shaking your heads well I agree with everything you said I also think that the that there -- boundaries you need to set early on and I think humor is important when setting the boundaries and it was completely forbidden -- -- -- -- strike anybody else my house with aggression no aggression. I think it's normal for children to fight I think it's actually healthy for them to learn how to resolve conflicts. But words like hate war teasing. All of these were. You can't do this and when the children were really young. I would actually pull them together when they were fighting and say okay. I think you'll need to tell each other how you feel nice and put your hands on your hips -- I said and say it with. Outdoor voice and -- behind -- like that and -- -- and I said -- archer and a stop get beat and then they stop their speed and by the end of it they were lapping. And so and that denied always and it went and you know family is the most important thing so give each other because no matter what you still love each other. And I really do believe that hasn't had an incredible impact on children and their close now oh my gosh. They're best -- wonderful restaurant and they have every reason to. Have gone through some -- at times are very close UNH twenty months apart. They each have their own individual strengths and weaknesses and I think it's really crucial. That you praise them for wealthy. They contribute and to and trying not to compare I think all parents do that. But actually I did do that and my daughter said something to me and I heard it loud and clear and I stopped so listen to your children. -- -- I'm telling -- if you were in the go to corporate you're so wonderful to hold on barber in Covington. That's -- Angela. When we grow -- it was the Korean. And I'm 55. So the wonderful advice and things have been listening should do was not invented. That. But what I do it one day we had a wonderful. Third. Day -- are. And chain. A witness -- have our team would get -- of both -- And recently. We lost my mum I'm tired. And she is now bearing a beautiful job -- -- differentiation. And battery. On that that is terrific. That's we're very. You know -- I'm sorry for the about your mother -- matter -- -- we're going to do a show on alzheimer's I think than a week yourself. It's a wonderful chance you're probably talk you are probably yes absolutely. But. But you -- do you get along with your siblings now. Yes we we still married there isn't a bit of this -- where five years apart down the where -- So we know that there are little distance there but it's wonderful. Seeing now. Yes very good Barbara I really appreciate the call. We're gonna take another break we're going to come back we're gonna continue our talk about birth order to 601870. If you. I want to share your own and we'll talk about that sibling rivalry right after -- While we're talking about in our parenting segment. About sibling rivalry in about birth order and something we didn't touch -- we talked about first born middle child baby. But what is the difference between boys and girls. When it comes to that if if the boy is being. First born does he automatically become the leader in the girl as the next to -- or what it. What if it's the girl who's born first and then the ball. Or doesn't make any difference at all. Catcher I'm not sure that it I think with our first -- a lot of us have a lot I have very high expectations. And -- For better for workers and often the stereotype of the generalization about first borns are often very skillful and successful and but they can also be multi day maybe a little -- anxious about. Keeping everything in order. So I'm not sure how much gender played the world. Every -- that's been done on. Raising boys and girls and you know what traits or gender specific. It is completely empty there are some some studies that have been done where. You know that may hold up the boys will be boys there are pros and because our girls that for the most part. The way. The way genders respond war. Or develop differently have to do with how me respond to them and their agenda so I think. The more interesting way to look at that would be. Do we look at first born girls are -- to most people look at of course -- -- treatment the same but to most people treat for sport girls differently and they may treat firstborn. -- you know in my house that probably wouldn't. Been true but in another house as it may people had to you know many people have different expectations for for boys and girls back. It does bring up a very interesting question for parents ask themselves about siblings and my expecting different things. Because. Gender and what -- does that have to yeah absolutely. But we talk about expectations of the first born mainly to you know great accomplishments of. Isn't that on your fourth child to wing it. And you just exhaustion. You could you could raise the fourth child with the same level of intensity and energy that she did -- the first that does seem like it would be feasible for most people you know and and Pratt and thinking -- We develop skills as parents certainly that we some -- laws that are children are some different. That's our order and a lot and it is who they are. And so what skill sets work really well with one child may not work quite as well -- but not there and so it is. -- are thinking about the sibling relationship it's important to look at our children uniquely and is Trish said not to compare them. I think we all know that saying why can't you be more like your brother usually doesn't make you wanna be more like it makes you want is your brother. Often breeds a lot of resentment that there's a real push to. Comparing your kids. Lot of times it really positive way can be very adamant that I introduce my kids and my daughter the artist and my son happily. You know they may feel confined in those roles and experience. And that's very interesting our caller Barbara I really -- she was saying about. They didn't have the rules. -- you know in fact information is much better than it was when I was going up -- -- and yet did did people. Study it. But are you finding that that young parents are really looking at the books and. I think it depends on who you're talking to I think a lot of parents are very interested in the Internet -- that the blessing and a curse someone and you can look at anything at 3 AM. You cannot they ask. And you really have to. Be selective in your resources for information. Have to take even if it's very solid theoretically. Have to be applicable to your online collapse that make it unanimous that not every piece of advice or information works for every child and everything in parents -- expert on their particular child says. We do encourage them to think about their child is used but they know about their top when they're trying to solve a problem will -- -- father of iron yes five children. Yes -- involved it does -- songs that are and my misses are not honest -- -- -- three boys are. You know I actually people -- Pressure on at check in check out of this burst out there leaks -- -- they are different they are different person now. And in one route out of work. I've learned. That -- was. You know it that you wish me a spot in the year ago back in -- My daughter. One when -- is that it turns out buckles but he -- you know. It's played in the mud and things like -- can't days -- -- -- -- but it got scared. They were out -- Right right -- that's very very interesting are all fun that you're just very different. -- aren't they are they close to each other. Are they -- -- -- Ellen did and they're very close they do everything yeah umbrella. Well. Yeah yeah it -- Ever. It can't point -- Interest in hearing what you feel like he did is bothered to really encouraged that closeness among children. That is actually a lot actually you know I never did you know bubble quite it would. -- whatever. But yeah. -- is there anything you did that encouraged the relationship between the five of them do you feel like. -- think it is articles every you know moment so many people in such a small well. An updated ever actually entered Greg ball in the one to -- and not. You know date when it was you know. Because we will coordinate all each -- -- -- you know the -- outlook report card Atlanta oracle all they took -- You know they are a lot. Of net. -- -- -- -- You know. And that is that gives teachers your children to nurture. -- and that is what being part of that family is is nurturing each other and support each other that's. And -- day oh you know get you know injured bonds have been in second and I can. -- -- -- -- That's no wonder you're terrific for calling I really appreciate it my husband tells the story of his son he has a son a daughter and daughter. And his son was in medical school early reports doctor and he was urban was asked to give a lecture an L issue and -- the sun had to introduce and he was a med student. And Randy met him halfway up the dial. And gave them a big kiss. And Irwin was that was -- a really pivotal moment is it always did just what Wayne is talking about. But to do publicly like that so a lot about urban and a lot about -- stay with -- everyone we'll be right. Well we are so lucky to have -- Evans and Lisa Phillips of the parenting center also parents themselves of course. Trish Kaufman an Amy drew just delightful parents. Sharing the stories of on their children and their birth order and their sibling rivalry and as older kids today. Becoming friends or our friends. Right I I wanted to throw out the the issue of favoritism. When you have multiple children. You know one that may be very natural but to do the kids pick up on. I think a lot of times they do and sometimes as parents we're not even aware of it or. It we eat we haven't awareness that it's so distasteful to us that we we try not to acknowledge. On but we're all human and we may connect with one child more easily than the other we may have similar interests we have similar temperaments that we find it easier to connect with that child. So I think it's important as parents that maybe -- knowledge back to ourself. And but at the same time once we acknowledge and recognize that to ourselves we have to work really hard to build a relationship with the other top because that do you think children. Very much pick up if they feel compare her via. And it's funny we hadn't been at least and I were sort of look at each other I think and we haven't talked much about this and I I think it is because it's taboo that parents down. Bring it up to us and it's making me remember my favorite parenting quote which comes from Fred Rogers if it's mentioned bullets manageable. And I think one of thinking about my my household I know that. We -- my kids and their dad joke a lot of people being each -- favorite ten. I'm not sure it's at that so much a problem but we did talk about how where alike. And now that they're older miners are seventeen and eighteen we did talk about the things that you know one of them. And I travel well together and another and I. Have a lot more fun hanging out of the house together and things like that that we are. Very open about the ways that we are like in different via and your own individual relationships with each of -- right. And I also think that especially as mothers we tend to see ourselves as a central figure in our child's life that. All of our children are part of the larger family. And it may be that I identify more with one child or have an easier time spending time with the child but. The other one might be. Closer to their dad or -- you know I have a niece who is extremely close to my parents it you know you can have. Relationships with other family members. That. That have different levels of interest in intensity so while we need to treat our children equally it doesn't have to be the case that. We find them all. Enjoyable or difficult in the same ways and have to make. Everything factly as me who does not mean the thing and I yet it's gonna say about the equally and it's just two words -- and it. But I think Q you know with my children. First thought I want to saying very upfront that I definitely got more connected with one of my children than any other. And I think at practice praising your children for whatever they contribute helps you as a parent to remember. What's great about each child and helps you get through summit -- -- rough times and now that daughter that I am talking about. Her and I are incredibly close and we were all. Just so close liking and I I look up to my mother and bankers saying. DC this DC this can she help me during when the kids were young and you know dealing with it. But I also feel like with my kids that I've had to say. It -- that when they say that's not fair. I think. This is what her situations about your situation may be different and hand and let them know that there it's not always going to be the same right. It was like payment only say to me you get the big bird and I don't. But but but when you do have as adults many viewers older much older kids. We have to say well you know your mother's favorite actor are you were on dad's favorite or what ever kind of breaks that ice. Maybe that's how I felt right and you know it does kind of brings up one other point from that. The research about why siblings and experience rivalry -- winding down -- line and a lot of times we think it's that. The conflict of issue that we see upfront. But we believe that it has to do with needs being met. In most cases really in every girl enhance -- people feel like they're basically their needs are being met or their basic needs are being -- And then they're less likely to feel that kind of Brian warrior conflicts have just like you guys are saying you don't necessarily have so much feeling and it's not -- If your basic needs arm so if you do have a lot of conflict among children in your house. Making sure that. That people are getting. Meals and meal times that they need and the kind of rest they need and the amount of attention that they -- and they feel support and LC. So and so that when their basic needs are met there at their best for dealing with each other in -- -- What do you do though if you have a situation where there the rivalry is that you can't get control of it. That we were talking a lot about that and actually at that at the parents -- yesterday and in preparation for today and thinking about at what point do you actually separate children and say. You know if you can't beat together then then you need to be apart. And and that would be the answer -- -- at some point -- you say that it's not going to be allowed that you -- each other and it's not going to be you speak to each other that way and you. He need to be apart for. And for this amount of time or whatever. But there needs to be symbolic that's not the solution that band later temporary fix and they're going back to them that things Trish was talking about and saying. We have to people who aren't you are working very well together about. Whether -- sharing the room are. Walking to school or you know whatever it is we need to talk about how have you guys are gonna work the senate together so we don't -- Families to feel like. -- -- The kids just don't get -- so we just don't do things together knowing we need to keep working on being able to do things together. But everybody needs to kind of brainstorm and be a part of the solution. The hard thing about answering that question on the radio that immediately. You know. Five different examples come to mind and none of them are the same and and it could be that none of them -- anything like any of the people listening exam. We do encourage people -- call -- parenting center yes or someone else whose parenting advice you respect and brainstorm and think it through. Don't give up what we know about it sibling relationships. And as Lisa was saying is that there -- important it's that only is place where people. Growing up especially children under they are trying out there social and emotional skills the ones that they're gonna need for. For friendships and four and school and for work life and behind her marriage and families of there and so don't give think of some ideas and and help them very I want to thank each and every one -- you you have a permanent place at this table -- just great people and great parents. And we're gonna have you back thank you so much stay with San -- were not done. Remembered called parenting center if you have any questions about parenting thanks to these great women again. Stay with this the next hour.