So are back in July and went through -- -- files and found news reports. The -- -- only fair share of Guzman. Needs to show programs. On the federal. Consent decree for prisons. And and I've read that article and he made some promises. About hiring people. Made from promises about monitors. There was a report that says. This situation that the prison is extremely. Critical. Saying -- needed to. Hired 93 corrections officers start -- for recruits of 25 recruits and all in all and -- And then yesterday -- the -- before a poll of this report that says puts it can done this year. Sure Grossman and his people. According to the new report quoting Brooklyn. Building braves across the board. Disarray. Understaffed and it's worse. Than those -- winner in the -- stop and during the first visit in December. The pace -- slow food and misses ten months of the federal consent decree. And -- -- is pretty serious report department thirty pages of report Megan Hume Greg. So if you're George go to do you have doctor Peter sharp part criminologist. Ought to welcome back to show. -- to to close -- -- welcome back to the -- and I'm honored. And the big question I mean -- just simplistic question is. Every time mug head serve products or police unions on the show with complaints. Or just trade issues. And a symbol. Why is that such a big problem I have one should expect that well we're required. To meet the consent decree. And Teixeira is not move help leader -- he avoided and they have to do. Well I loved your intro. It's really catch 22. You know as you saying then we're we're we talk between both sides or metal you know when this movement to reduce the prison population 14100. Now people wanna go back up because -- such dangerous place which is true. That the the the other thing that jumps -- -- and I innocence in the Campbell monitors very good very tough way to Europe are counting -- in the you know the if you can't take your 14100. -- take your 2000. You know in the guards the problem of the guards its complex and I've done studies on. Gordon retention they don't stay in some jails and the stuff I could -- it's probably noticed morning. But they'll turn over 345. Times a year. So we'll stay a couple of months. And -- so part of the problem is on retention keeping people get and training. Fifteen years ago I worked with a -- in in the jail we taught college classes. To the officers. They loved a lot of them got the it's -- analysts' view with you heard. Health science and public health I want to do the same thing only go back in there. And really go to the share of -- that they called. The you know in and so all solved the problem which is these people we. The other thing is. He really two ways to lose your job you get injured which of these you do in the jail. The second thing with the consent decree is violating use of force rule or whatever he prosecuted the case. So the consent decree may be exacerbating. Not a protective factor in terms of recruiting them. The other things you gotta get real if we are paying minimum wage when you're gonna happen -- mountains. One they live in the sense that officers who have the same neighborhood successful it -- afford the criminals know. So when they have something on him into this language you half with bag to. My sister Sally who you know. So you know the the issue under staffing. You under paying and under servicing and under training under educating. Your correctional officers. Is field and in the room it's not yeah that'd be great -- -- funds are the only ones. When they get in there. And the government should slowly -- you know who's been achieved if you care to our work -- bunch prison where -- right now reentry. But this is a very tough job. And I think it's the city we have faith we have question what would take to beat compliance with the consent decree. And it's you know it is like somebody's been better production fourth. They just have an this coming dumping ground of the most violent of the most violent folks in -- -- we talked about a week. And get them on how many listeners out there would want a career. Guarding offenders who got to think this. Whole thing through lips start thinking this whole thing through -- -- and and and and we always like Fisher to. But I don't think I think in Africa the governor race -- the show. But it would have been news reports in the bin federal reports. Two in particular. Or report cards on what their share of his supposed. In order to comply. With the federal directive to change the way the prisons operated. Should worry hires change where you conduct business and for the second time according to media reports so look. A Fuller quote directly the report card as soon for the second time this year. And New Orleans parish prison the sheriffs have received building bridge across the board. And they've they've talked about everything from the hiring activity. But he said -- Who do Rory. Been ordered to do by a federal judge. Not done -- adequately done piecemeal Dolan medical mental health treatment for the image not done. Vision remains -- -- compliance with 85%. Of the consent -- 85%. According to. 130 page report pretty. Detailed report. -- doctor Peter sharp for this criminologist. And conductor -- go back to the question. Of okay -- why is he doing this and how is he doing this because again. When I talk to police with a BV union or the former police chief. They say what we don't have any -- and consent decree is making those -- it so they're doing it. Well the concern or is making him do -- not explained that. -- a couple things one. The police forward higher or with the partial hiring. Folks who have -- job and that's ensure compliance. So it's one thing I would suggest to this year it's really get a team of top level management. Who really assure compliance. The second thing go back to the context. The funding of the prison OP consent decree was political football between mayor -- the sure. Remember and -- word came close to accusing in the share of all kinds of crimes little. And came very nasty and ugly. And the question of the status of fun. Is something that I think needs street looked and remember how we get funded it is -- money that goes to share. And they're huge -- disputes between. The mayor's office from the sheriff about that level of fun. And I think Susan Campbell as the sheriff of Broward County Florida. An excellent one of the top correctional officials. She's right to hold everybody. To this task of assuring safety. You know something and murder people who go to OP PE -- go too into that system. May or may not be convicted of crimes. So we get hold off and there bear. Against their will waiting for trial can't make bond whatever. Conditions make it very difficult to -- bond. And a bail and he it's a duty of fighting. To protect them. The other thing is all the violence in the streets gets imported. Into that president. Salute the we're in institutions the hiring issue what. -- -- -- Here if it is a financial. Argument between the in the mid air. And -- hypothetical problems and share. I got the second report and one here that says you're failing across the board. Would -- response the well world were partially cola compliant in 22 areas. Up from here in the lab report. Of -- initiated several working groups. Of being. We've got some inmates we're -- transfer to another correctional center. We're trying to bring -- -- medical and health provider. And and an off hired at compliance officer. What I say and got the money and that and still not. Understanding. How he gets away with the federal government big threads that big -- meaning that adds. Should go do this and for the second time -- hasn't. He did. It's unparalleled water and you know lucky thing is the real Swanson. You know so no it's gonna take it over would you take over Lewis and the political offense Seko in prison. That's possibility that's happened in a number of jurisdictions. With a big benefit to the city or a mud and it's it's. You still have these structural issues I think. Large numbers of mentally ill people. Did you -- and and I you know. I listen visiting in this kind of rural Kentucky reform would turn in Kentucky. In there with the ten minute watch and suicidal inmates. And inmates from watching that -- the -- the -- from Phil Reid. Ten minutes from Kabul were a good behaviors -- with the tournaments or twelve months whoever -- And there was a nurse there. And from the floor for something -- -- if they were outside -- would get no mental health care whatsoever. And we're we have a federal grant giving him a little I think what's called co occurring disorders people have both depression. And substance abuse co occurring thing -- The number of people with co occurring disorders people who manage their depression with the illegal drugs is enormous in the -- So to really address. The the mental health needs some substance he needs to conditions. Is is is a very substantial tax so the risk. Firm and having discussions with. Cure goes and know very well work of twenty years twenty years. You know with the question of sort of one. You know. What is the level of difficulty to do you have within one psychiatrist. You know with 1416100. In right. Helped me co occurring disorders. That if you see everybody once every nine weeks would read it right. So you know the you know and that's from the need of better management plan and you need better finding its. To do. To do -- and you know the you know and in the the concentrated pathology. Of all medical problems and things. The issue. And I -- youth won't force some friends of mine about they do drug grade through his guys wake up in Houston. Driving in Jacksonville we go arrest them write -- fit great display in new liver transplant probably kidney transplant. People who've been on the streets for long times. Are most to -- ten people we cut to heroin does rather than. This rooms to compute yes. Everything I've read across this country in particular Texas. And Mississippi are good reviews things. Or reducing prison population. In their spotlighting -- talking about the middle you know. The depressed. The brain chemistry problems. They're showing them off to a different. Way of pork and that more of their funding. Their prison calls from going down. People were paying you're taxes because and that is all over the country. But listened to and usually shall issue law enforcement expert on you know. Exploiting known I don't know we need a bigger prisons here. Because the beer institute comes in and liberate prisoners and just because of prisoners. Is raided his non violent he may have non violent history. And therefore you classify them and therefore when we hire more public is gonna have more -- shall we need a big prison. What is that the boy you know. That the rest of the country just. In -- there were required landslide has man for the cup madness the whole country is talking about mass incarceration. As the addiction of this country. But I started we talk about our youth and so -- -- -- 170. You present another million -- down from million film is. Their scientific. Evidence. That by treating. Mental illness. In -- in the people that have or not violent. That you'll reduce prison population can't always search for -- the books among just completed -- -- -- world -- there sciences. That's true yeah. If you have concurrent integrated care you know we're gonna work with the on the other females for these few mentally ill people leaving prison he treat them they don't come back. The violent criminals you -- this -- they don't come back these sailors that is that we have the doubt I'll bring my regression. Showing. You know and we're thinking stupid you know the rest of the country -- our. Getting these people maintaining in New York City -- to -- strikers jail. And when Marty horn ran for years. They can start with a release Clinton get about 35 days New York. In 1990 and 2200 murders now they're under about 300. The jail population was entries by hill from trying it out to 141000. Everybody who think and Smart. And and the we're going bankrupt -- five. You know really the group would increase cracks will cause the one thing they'll learn from the sure your whatever I think. Is usually totally wrong or partially wrong. Oral bright and so -- like certain elements in arms over the right so when I hear like her room and -- one year. Sheriff's talking about why we need more prisons. And I had the exact opposite from the rest of the country this part of me that says I've got to follow in the region from here. As to whether. Maybe I'm wrong -- when I'm reading -- and read the results room wrecked and OK about it for the second time this year these do. This year up in the prison. Or -- -- doing what they've been told to do by the federal government and consent degree trailing across the board. And it -- detailed report to these reports are correct 130. Pages worth. And one of my question is bill and ever -- -- talk to them please. And whether it be union with a -- -- issue and they tell me about something that while working there of their -- happy about this into the bowl. Why were you doing it because we're required to by the consent decree. And music is just curious to me that it doesn't seem that the -- compartment. You require. -- -- the sharpest there was criminologist. Over drove up Pam Metzger reserves -- professor of law and expertise in the New Orleans parish criminal justice system. At Tulane University. Professor -- and we sure appreciate the time. Well what am I missing -- the -- as a share of not. It is inaugural for -- to get it done period. Well I think that's exactly the right question to be acting Garland -- Blanchard going to be charger Jack I handle it. Frankly the -- power hold in contempt order of this court are you partial federal receivership where. Public sheriff a host sure many months ago and that coming to pass an act could be done incrementally. Certain. -- the detailed operation delay commissioner and you know or we're not done. -- a -- in our but I think you know they're in court this morning on the -- and I think they did it stern. How long this has gone on without being. -- -- any significant encrypt. Explained the monitor turn to me is there's a federal monitor and its own. Because of the -- reporter looked -- July 23 this year. This report -- of yesterday of the disabled for. -- when you match the story is that thing to George's said in July 23. Or primarily what do or. Yesterday you also does mature in that in -- Not report to the do. Well look at the monitor is charged with supporting back part of the object and Orkut Monica how he. -- o'clock. A report and then there's substantial change but the monitored -- -- the monitors. Lola information come from a variety of -- country sheriff and the report indicate that that. Complying with disclosing to the moniker. Has not been as prompt comment -- then nor necessarily incomplete. And -- try to get information from infamy on. Reported routinely. That there are free to report non compliance including traitor port in the island and aggression in the jail. Because they're afraid they'll be retaliation. The monitors working under challenging conditions. Are trying to move things well some of the challenges could be eliminated petitioner would move forward in making the hires and changes -- -- -- And end his third. That would -- what do you think your chances doors the only skill wondered. That there would be a federal takeover either partially or in Tokyo. -- and at that moment what I can tell you. That I don't think check Africa is likely are enormous amount of patient with the kind of delayed we saw in the lack. The detention of turbulent air -- and that was the longest and try to litigation. Other person in the country history. I think what what has happened here it is both in terms of a local prison term -- Judge Africans get her to step up and eat the picture girl well insulated politically. And I think -- -- much bigger scale. What what we as a state have to think about is that we created this situation we have a constitutional. Provision. It creates a structure where this New Orleans -- the jail the the share Latin -- really -- on 0% on the lecture in the slot position and their insurance -- on -- On the money however he bought and the last day and then dragging in the partnership. -- ample evidence of our. Pam and a -- to -- and let's bring in one of our callers. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- art art -- they are not. Helpful to go back double times. -- -- All that's what we might get. I'll -- my -- that I get it. Commented at that point. One I think we'd go to big red big bigger -- the problem. Why we don't -- any traditionally -- outback and they battle. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Offset the talk about -- and -- that somebody's figured that money. To make the heart. All black and hear something that -- check point guard and bit. The other Arctic Arctic because at that -- -- What their compared to other fighter what are being brought up drug and -- I like about our background yeah it's quite urged it get out the -- they get out there. Apparently it's not your community that actually lost because of the economic data -- they are aware they're barely get up or down. -- you're -- of the church or go to C budget -- on our country. The different things goes there to get it. We didn't connect -- -- that you ultimately get out they don't Albert are built like a problem I think. I did not because it -- equipment that I prepare pale. Introducing ideas on hold on to the Kremlin would go to you first what the Coca. Sure we have a federal prison here is should we -- prisoners -- close to -- and be close to the prevalence. Well let me let me -- question them and you heard it. First -- all. Sure -- -- went back and charged -- it was it was picture he pioneered the idea of using. Local jail as a way to raise money raise capital battery goes directly to share -- its discretionary. Right. They -- in the city controlled. What we know from experience both with already -- that jail and -- government and the jail. Now it is -- not work but the conditions were so appalling. That -- that removed their partnership New Orleans scourge curtain because there are. Prisons are made and they shouldn't be made a profit -- undercard to Andre and to -- that. And certainly a place like Orleans where we get -- And inadequate and say Barbara conditions. I don't think there's any -- tend to think that we can somehow concur that by bringing in prison population and where we're at the operation you're talking about. The fact that no we won't -- our partners to those conditions. Are building a bigger jail -- deeply sympathetic to the college point about. Wanting to keep and they close to home close to family -- and giving them the opportunity rotational deal. But we don't need bigger -- -- The reality is launcher has very little control over should either be Orleans parish prison population right that a lot to do with the judges and DA. We don't need it -- jail repeat build stable -- And particularly go to jail and moral track until the debt -- torture -- -- -- -- Orleans ended up being in prison capital of the world. What we needed to eat at smaller smarter jail and smaller smarter. System of handling promote sentence so we -- -- people in jail don't need to be there until we offer. Job training education drug treatment rehabilitated. Services in the community. Instead of jail instead of in jail there -- been over in -- month period more than 200 people transported to urgent program. Significant number of -- -- -- not because it -- problems are their own but because they were in fight it actually Alter their harmed by our brother. It good good to hear your voice again -- Good for you -- we hang at the same coffee shop. His. You know pamphlet grade point in 2004. We had almost a 100000. Refs. -- you get a hundred. Probably you know multiple -- through some individuals. We had used stigmatization. Of people him and given the digital -- log records and criminal record system. They can't couldn't get jobs. So you know the successes. The -- demonstration. A -- -- -- -- Smith and incarceration podium and so many 200. Folks in this prison at the peak. And again you know it's like it's it's it's sleep -- crack cocaine. Feeding you're either with immigrants -- federal prisons are some cancers from of the -- You know that this man and in you know you think about it. The -- financial constraints on these sheriffs. That they try to solve you know as -- thing and you know. And destructive way. The issue of treatment for a qualification one pretrial offenders -- -- of two groups of lenders too who are friends and people -- pretrial. The the ability to deliver sufficient to require mental health of the country for pretrial educated folks. Is is very very limited. And so we're -- I -- questioned on both good to hear your voice again. But the question with pretrial. What what are the kinds of programs you'd need that. Group of individuals. -- one final question. -- -- -- minimum peppers -- And we've done shorts -- show from Texas to Mississippi all of this country they're cutting back on prisons. Everything. -- upon the U recidivism rate goes down. They're treating people for health issues rather than. Nonviolent crimes. But Angela have -- Navarro. Law enforcement people on yesterday saying. No we're gonna have more police were going to be making for more -- we need a bigger prison. Of -- institute who's come in and re even the prisoners. And you just can't look at somebody that so called non violent. Men may have put in their history of violent charge. Oh. Boy do we know that the rest of the country doesn't now. Are we don't they know what we need now is the -- our problem quite simple we are constitutional provisions. That in powers share in this state. Two and jailed without being responsible. And Eric this connects payers commissioner and as a result. -- share a -- in the state has an undue influence over criminal justice policy older. He made money every share in this state. Make his or her money. Her head on prisoners and so what that means is we had a very powerful political lobby. They are not a sport to be -- a crime. In the way to other state across the country are being Smart on crime and we will not she'd had problems group. Until we find -- way to restore an appropriate balance of power. And what you are a broad portfolio blown out of time but this is mega important love begin drew back later -- computers always. True true true coming up. Thank you both we will continue this compensation. And -- Saturday have a good day. But I can double dubbed Joseph bigger celebrity a moral 53 -- -- them.