Sep 8, 2014|
Angela talks with attorneys Chick Foret and Robert Jenkins and firearms instructor Dave Newman about the laws on defending yourself with a gun
We're discussing the hot topics of the day with co-host of First Take, Todd Menesses.
Angela discusses the shooting in Lafayette and says farewell to WWL as she hands her timeslot off to Scoot.
What's trending in sports, news, and entertainment?
Angela talks with WWL-TV investigative reporter Katie Moore and Tulane law professor Tania Tetlow about the city's backlog of uninvestigated rape cases.
Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
Well there have been a number of cases of -- where citizens have defended themselves against those they say we're going to hurt them or who were stealing from them. Couple sitting on their own back porch are herded into their own home by a man with a gun husband gets his own gun and shoots. A local minister -- two men stealing copper from the air conditioning units of -- church. And shoot at them as safely. One is hit in the head. What are the laws -- canyon shoot. How does the law. Define use of force. We'll hear to talk about the issue we are loaded with experts today. Attorney Robert Jenkins former state public defender today a criminal defense attorney. Check for a former assistant district attorney and assistant US attorney and now an attorney in private practice and channel -- legal analyst. And Dave Newman is of firearms instructor registered with the Louisiana state police concealed handgun unit. He -- concealed handgun permit courses. Personal protection courses. Refused to be a victim course and is a range safety officer. And I cannot think the review enough. And I wanna say to everyone out there listening we may never get these three guys in the room together again so if you've ever had a question or just your own thoughts on what our laws are. Give us a call be part of this conversation 260187260187. Thanked each and every one of thank you the reason we're doing this is because we've had sort of an optic all of the sudden. Of of people defending themselves are saying they're defending themselves so we really wanted to get. What the story is what the laws are and let's quit and take that you know the first one to me why is couples in the backyard. Just enjoying their day in -- guy comes and -- and the house he has gone. You have every right to protect. Well you're confronted with a lethal threat and you have the right to meet that threat with another lethal so. I would say in that case I think it would be justifiable unless there's some circumstances I don't know. Well. Factors that you have the right to defend yourself and your family and these individuals from India for the weapon. You're right -- -- before with defense I'm Marie. The laws based upon the facts and that particular case Angela I don't think there's any question. But that the couple has the right to defend themselves. What the law talks about his phrase that says that it has the use of force has to be reasonable and apparently necessary. And there is a presumption that if you're in your home or your in your car or your in your business. If someone is either inside of that establishment of core business. Or whether or not they're trying to -- and then you have a presumption. That they use of deadly force is justified the it's our history you don't suppose. We changed it had been just a little bit. They may decide to leave. And -- bullying him leaving intend to use that force to defend himself and that's why you have to look at all the facts of every particular case. I don't know if we wanna talk about particular case we don't. Need to and I did that just as a quick illustration I don't wanna talk specific cases. I do want to talk those hypotheticals. That's a good point Robert so all of a sudden the god wants to -- he's changed his mind right -- -- still terrified. That's correct. And and this is where is the case by case basis it's just terrified you may be able to. Legally use lethal force but the problem is he's leaving he's playing in addition to back -- you have some issues that's gonna come up with the district attorneys are. That's right the aggressor cannot claim self defense law comes into play than just -- her. That person is no longer an aggressor there withdrawing from the conflict in a manner that you should understand the desire to withdraw and just continue to conflict. And that's how that -- so. Guys shooting people in the back is something -- I see you should never let. Let's talk a little bit and this is not the specific case but let's say on -- in my backyard. And with my cat and all of a sudden somebody comes and my backyard don't I don't see the -- I don't see a weapon but I'm terrified. And he's gonna push me into the house. I haven't -- I've -- can shoot him. Even though there is no -- I would say that the fact RW reason believe it's gonna harm you -- you figure in -- you can defend yourself. Because it's not that common saving -- are heavily pretty quickly. And when you ask and you shoot them you can only do so if you think that you're not only -- -- -- what. Reasonable. Debt by the home -- so my answer to that would be. It depends the distinction. I don't think there's any question Angela that this standard that is used on the Louisiana law and it's very clear in the statutes. Is that has to be reasonable and apparently necessary let's look at your example your in your backyard with your cat. That's why the facts become so. Magnified and so important is what exactly did that person do wish you gate locked. Did he have to scale wall what if I had an OK what if you just meandered -- and you know I don't see a weapon but he is saying you're gonna go in the house and I'm gonna -- -- Tell me it's clear that it is reasonable and apparently necessary. To use force and is justified to use that force. To prevent that I don't think I don't think that's a problem -- all I don't see anywhere yet on and I think what we -- what I would like to do for the listening public is. To establish for them the standard that a jury looks looks for what happens is in any case and I learned this in laws who many years ago. Cases of facts Pacific. So what the jury does is the jury asked the question what's the law work from home are supposed to apply those facts. To the law and the law is is it reasonable and apparently necessary so you know that that's the end game. Reasonable apparently necessary. Then you take the facts and implement that's why the facts become so important particularly like in a police investigation and they can talk about that. If you have good police work and you have good fact gathering. Then makes it easier for the DA's office and for the jury to determine whether or not it was the justified use of force. The only problem with that is that if indeed. The person that we only have your word to say that hey you listed is an -- Then as -- have been you have to have facts and evidence to support that. It becomes difficult. Well and one other thing that I'd like to point now it is in your circumstance that he just proposed. You're woman and you're saying it's a man that's attacking you he's telling he's -- pusher in the house and rate view. We get into what we call a disparity of force because you said that he didn't have a gun he didn't have a knife but at the same time as a woman if you let him and beat on you long enough. You could die RB -- in the hospital okay so that meets the the criteria of the law that you have to be in fear of death -- grave bodily harm so. You've got to get into that disparity of force now let's change it just a little bit. I'm a big -- I am economic fairly good shape if a guy tells me that he doesn't have a gun or knife or some lethal threat I'm just gonna tell him. Q did your best shot by the okay. And when -- where they might see in a courtroom that I might not have a disparity of force and it might use that against me I decided to use a firearm. OK so you've got to understand that as well. You know -- but -- attacking right here. We all have great respect for you check and out of the box and you know David had sent some some interesting things that something that we presume. Misconceptions that people have. And one of them is shoot trespass. Yeah a lot of people think that just because somebody's on your property that you have carte Blanche to just go ahead and and use your firearm and shoot them. Think the way the law reads in -- can back me up on this. You have the right to compel them to leave with a firearm doesn't mean victory at the right to just shoot them. I think that's a misconception a lot of people have now you get into questions out why chick askew was the gate -- gate was the gate locked. We get into the forcible entry today. Which is mentioned in the law as well we're referring to or it's 1420. Where we talk about forcible entry and if you can prove forcible went for you to have more rights. So. But at the same time people can't just assume that because your -- our property package issue. Or are with the in the new laws you mentioned them in drag them back in riots break totally browser only improper. What about shooting someone to stop a crime in progress. Well -- is that you can also defend others that they think is probably all the debt it's -- you can do that if they have that they could have justifiably done so themselves. Then you can shoot in defense of another person but the caveat I'd like to throw in the areas you'd better be sure that the person you're shooting and defense that is the innocent party. And that's the growth and that's right Christian you might be walking up on a situation where -- you see -- -- hole and it gone on -- on a woman I'm all for sure Korea grew up in a girl's dormitory while protecting women -- but at the same time. I don't know this woman and I -- I shoot him in defense of her thinking she was innocent but it turns out that she was being arrested. She was that I was an undercover officer. I shot -- Okay and she was resisting arrest so you know you've got and you've got to be a little more sure about the circumstances you gotta be sure that your defending the innocent. Party. As you can tell we have a lot to learn and I hope you gonna stay with this Christmas gonna get your question stay with this give us a call 260. 187 day I'm Angela under the anyway. We're talking with real experts when it comes to defending yourself chick for rain Robert Jenkins two very well known. Attorneys and Dave Newman who was up firearms instructor registered with Louisiana state police concealed handgun unity -- all kinds of courses. Let's go to some of our callers real quick and I do appreciate your holding on crescent slight hill. And our. I question out well for your expert. God forbid I ever had this year and -- What do I need to do to protect -- I mean you're -- index hang up but there. You know look I am obviously it will operate like beat my lawyer Ers are CG you -- -- And eat it and you know and to the questions that mean. Court electable operate but it all I have that much -- in the criminal justice system to go ahead. And any -- in it myself. Even -- enough. Bearing interest in question. My advice would be ended down 911. And then call your lawyer and that if the police get their first. And in some jurisdictions you question question whether or not that it differs but at the police get their first. My advice is this is -- speaking I would tell him I am not prepared to give a statement on that opportunity to meet with my attorney that would be my advice to you. That sounds almost on American. But I think that's the best way that you can't protect yourself the factual eventually come out. Is no need to give. Your appreciation. Of the facts to a law enforcement officer who may or may not be well trained and then they put their interpretation. On what you told them I think it's much better. If you have met with a lawyer before you speak to law enforcement so it doesn't turn the law enforcement against it might oh absolutely and reality. The law enforcement's not gonna be happy with you at all and you may in fact get arrested and it had happened it'd be terrorists because they think you open absolutely -- -- to. Did you know tell them that you don't usually give a statement with one I don't know -- I have one other thing I'd like to add to that Chris I agree with these gentlemen wholeheartedly but at the same time always tell my students for -- conceal weapons class. That you can easily talk yourself into jail quicker than you can talk your way out of jail or you should definitely. Tell -- wanna see you talked to your lawyer before you give a statement. Don't talk to your neighbors or your friends don't talk to anybody else does that anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law. You may slip up and say something like a match or are really needed to do this then all of a sudden it comes into the courtroom and guess what known for. And assume this chick again assume you're going to jail. And there is a case recently that we've heard about where there was a family member. Who gave a different statement and the shooter game and that may come back as a problem and in the merit case which I think we can talk about because that cases overweight at. I have heard that the wife gave a statement that was not totally in uniformity with what the husband gave cell. I would allow any in my family members to give a statement. Because listen your wife's gonna be very upset. She may have interpret. What if for instance in the Mary case a very important fact that we talked about during the break was. Whether or not the person who was trying to get into the house whether or not he actually pulled on the shatters. What is your wife gives the statement because she was asleep or whatever while I'm here ample and on the shutters and yet you say well I heard ample. Now the DA has your wife food they're gonna use against you in that because she heard something totally different that what you're. Now I -- but did -- belly up -- Hardaway scored an attorney and eat. Did you get there it's bad day you know bringing into the Asian alternate current a great I played there -- bring any Asian. And ultimate -- period of time and they'll ever being straight -- out -- America. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- I love her very. Question I wrote for thank you very much -- let's go to Rick in New Orleans. Yeah I Angela correct Gloria good. Some question about. They -- -- -- chairing a gun and not car what do I need to do you have a car -- -- -- -- -- are. And is -- people. To carry a gun this is Dave Newman. You can -- -- cars truly an extension to your home in the state of Louisiana whereas in other states if they -- different laws that. You can carry a gun in your car you don't need a license for. You don't have to have a concealed weapons permit for it you can carry a gun in your cart your right. Okay and it -- stop her let's face speedy. (%expletive) I'd tell the police felt certain that I have a gun in my book box. I knew you were going Meredith this question a lot. If I would give him what he wants first if he's pulling you over for speeding he wants your driver's license insurance and registration. If you do have a concealed weapons permit I tell my students to diplomat as well usually the officer would say why are you giving me this. That's when you put your hands clearly -- he can see him don't be reaching in the car for anything when you say I have a firearm in the car legally. Would you like to see it and then -- so tell you what he wants you to do. And that's terrific thank you Rick very much. I want you to stay with this so Lewis were gonna get to your question. We have a bunch of questions I wanna know. But the definition of castle doctrine. What does that well. That's the -- that's just the term that we use from Louisiana stadium right to defend yourself and home use the time capsule -- has a home that phone was so. In your home you have all the right where you have the right to its defend yourself especially peeping imminent home is going to happen but it goes back to effective. If someone in Britain at home and they see -- fleeing you cannot fire their weapons and. The further you get away from the home molest presumption there is for you you have an absolute presumption and this is Chica and my interpretation. Of the law as a matter fact. DA Leon -- -- when he met with Robert myself and Joseph respond the back on May sixteenth he gave -- press releases as a related to the marriage case in that pressure -- this is from the district attorney of Orleans banners. His writing is a person who is in his dwelling. May use force or violence against another who is unlawfully attempting to honor is well. The closer you -- to those facts the more protecting you war and if I'm in my house and someone trying to get in my house. I have the absolute right to use force. The further you get away from your house the less the presumption that that is if I'm in the driveway and there's a car -- and I'm shooting at the car. You don't have a presumption that someone -- Now I agree with you a 100%. That that we if you're in your home in your car and you place to work as -- law says you have more rights the further you get away from that. The though -- less of presumption that your life is really in danger. Stay with us everyone and give us a call with your thoughts or questions to 60187. -- we'll be right back. Our guest today chick foray Robert Jenkins and Dave Newman. As we talk about on what the law is on how you can defend yourself. Louis I appreciate your holdings so long. -- Oh yeah -- To definitely. Get -- -- About you not -- somebody. -- -- I wanna tell you. I don't open pretty period. And it. Injury is back groom someone break out. And grateful to daughter. And it walked out and she had gone under the deal. Yet right to -- in positive he would break and crimes that. It's really. Do want that to cater to do a lot to do local police. But it all right just shoot back because not only -- -- local people that they may go back you'll. Do it right to demand that desperate call. Are you all. An and I agree in an away. The closer you war to inside of the house he'd do in fact and I'm the Davis if I was. And I can understand how you're drawing the conclusion that you drawing in the presumption is very clear. It is presumed that if you were in your house and someone is -- trying to get him or comes into your house you have the right to shoot that person. And use force -- I totally agree with you. Then again the -- the common sense part of me says. Let's look at all of the facts if it's as exactly as you describe. That that let's assume I'm a female I just got raped. My daughter just got raped the perpetrators is in the house and and and I'm struggling on the ground and I have a gun. And he's trying to leave the back door he still in my house tonight shooting him. I don't think the DA would would file charges against you based upon Louisiana now. But you've got a look at all the fact it trillion and a saga and. There is there is remember it out remember remember there is a resumption. That doesn't mean that is an absolute. Right right to do that there is a presumption. That what you have. Same rights to women. In. Public on. -- it would get into it. Not not -- should not to shoot him in the back you don't have a little. Think it. Let me put it all chewed you bit about the bully get -- because at this point is still doing it. How has it meant that the bank hit it. What if the guy is leaving. And all of this and and you're thinking he's gonna come back in Kilmeny but he doesn't he's just keeps going to the door. Well it. You heard it's got to do Michael -- But you just said it was okay for us to shoot him in the back at the. I go back to this I go back to the -- at. All. You do not given them a chance to get out the door you have a pretty -- the closer you. Get out there. The closer it. I had to -- is gone. 7 o'clock at night to one broken outlook for. But. A couple of speaking to reach out okay. That series. -- out my old logo on the -- to its. State. I thought I'd -- as they did an article. The Canadian kids to come. To. People it is true and everyone has the right if you did. It. Point -- out there that you've. Got the right to shoot back there ain't nobody can deal. So you so you saying you're teaching them that they have the right to shoot in the back politically. Are you saying that you're teaching in this class that you have the right to shoot him in the back putting it up piles. Do you also teaching your class r.s 1421. Aggressor cannot claim self defense. -- -- in our. And that's a coup in 1981. -- -- to talk to. Japan and I think it's a partnership. And oh -- Apparently. Lives but apparently to. -- Appreciate your call I really do appreciate your thoughts. Probably a little disagreement here but again your trooper to have stayed on the phone I appreciate it. Very quickly let's go to Paula and -- Paul. Hello Paul. I would like early again view did a fine. Period bodily injury and Italy the self defense. Whose bodily injury. The bodily injury against you. -- yield to me and I'm looking through law I have all the front irregular Louisiana revised that -- 14192021. Point Arlington law. I don't know that there is a specific definition. Of serious bodily injury but -- have to take a few minutes and see if there is one. But once again I go back to the the the specificity. All the facts I mean is in Ohio what can you give me a -- with at and then we'll see if we all agree that is is a definition of what. Where you're trying to go with us I think he's worried about him now. So there. There's no simple definition that's the case by case basis meaning that. If you reason believe that if that happened he can defend itself but that's no quote unquote. Does this is violently -- this. OK stay with us everyone and callers we'll be right with okay talk into three great guys check for you Robert Jenkins and -- from Newman talking about. The law and what we can do. If we feel like we're going to be harmed and it is a little more complex and you think I'm into the future scenarios you just tell -- what. Okay I'm walking to my car I see someone coming toward me aggressively. I did not see a gun but I am afraid and I yell stop. And they still come toward and I have a -- can I shoot. Well I think Eagles have circumstance if you reason believe that they coming to harm you. Still don't go to -- has office but. My answer would be. No don't shoot and also pivot and say that -- when he spoke with today they do something on you but my answer would be pick in regard to next call on your father weapon. I have I've yelled don't you know go stop. And they still keep coming. And I go back to was it reasonable and apparently necessary that's the question -- is of course if you if you if you in your heart of hearts. Think that this is the end this person's generate me are gonna hurt me in some way. Then in your mind was it reasonable and apparently necessary question let me ask you the question this scenario you just gave me you want that person. You -- the actor and you're -- thing. Was it reasonable apparently necessary. Unfortunately would be I would be that for yeah. Then I wouldn't want to but I would if I really thought the guy was coming. I would and that's the standard that the jury you know you turn the wheel that there was a similar one because as -- feed these cats by the river and usually very late at night midnight. The very alert them about what's around me. But what if somebody does come -- and there's nobody else around I mean there's no. Two of -- -- -- basket and he and comes up again and very threatening manner. I'm far away from home to some listening to what you're saying about home car office. What would you do what we need more anthrax than you -- -- that's -- -- and what happened somebody walks up some -- coming up and in this. -- -- More played out about what that threatening manner is which Xstrata said. So that we can determine whether it was reasonable or not for you to assume that your life was in danger. You just said to gonna grab you would lead you to believe that we are -- because as soon as I turn around and scream and say wait a minute. Actually people have stuff all you just being cast on just feeding cats and everything to variants -- but if somebody wasn't that innocent and kept coming toward me. In that environment which is very alone. What are they running towards you coming progressively not running becoming aggressive. And you've won the stop weapons to defend yourself you think is reasonable living on on you can be great -- he even again that is far away from home. Yeah edit it we're talking about home if you haven't even in our area outside. You've told them and I think you have to tell them the fact of the matter is is that the aggressive it was you. Union so -- you warned him if you're living and haunt you you can defend yourself. A lot of factors are taken into account and remember now. You're looking at your state of mind when you fired when you -- charge that weapons and what was your state of mind. Supposedly Angela the radio show in September and she said on the radio we you know. I just assume that anybody walks up on me is is coming to get me and I'm gonna shoot them. And then a month from now you do that exact thing and it was some homeless person. So you look at all the factions and everything in your mind said. As to whether or not in -- standing by the river feeding the cats as she feeds every night late at night in nobody's ever around was it reasonable. And was an apparently necessary for you to discharge away. Right and the thing I mentioned earlier about disparity of force in the case of you being a woman. And you've got this man come and -- then they gonna use that as well and and in the determining factor of that it was a reasonable for you to think that July was in danger because you couldn't defend yourself without using the. You follow me -- to say I don't have a fine. Well I got to put it I mean yes but I know here which -- analogy set on the radio you -- -- a -- and -- cats late at night. I advise you -- dirty quick feet make let's change the location of a. This is another whole show on how about this I'm at home. A man is pounding at the door I scream for him to leave. I call 911 because he's not leaving. But now -- raised -- pushed the door. Can I shoot through the door. That's the case they had recently up north with a guy shot the girl who was in the automobile accident and she was trying to get in and he's in jail for. 101520. Years whatever it was no you can't just fire -- because some ice knocking on my door look at the case in Baton Rouge. That we had years ago the Japanese foreign students -- it was Halloween. -- trick or treating on Halloween I mean you've got to look at all of the facts okay. Well this is gonna look. Now now let's let's add something to that -- if you can if the guy if the doors about to go so he's not not not just knocking on the door. He's kicking the door trying to kick the door in a -- called cops and Marty screaming now now you've got a different circumstance where you can prove that forcible entry was occurring or had occurred as the loss. OK so if but you gotta be able to prove that that door was about to go when you shut that down. Counselors because we're running out of time Anthony has been so kind he's asking. Do you need to concealed permit for gun in a car and I believe dancers -- you do not need a concealed permit but but it cannot be concealed. The gun has to be. Mountain State well can be -- with such a way that the -- -- from Kayla went out to conceal -- -- -- yeah yeah. Okay -- and take another break we'll be right back. In our last minute we're talking about the the laws that -- we have but to defend ourselves Charlie in Slidell. -- I don't and a -- you know one car don't look at him search aid. A late Warner among gone from our protection. It was on -- -- it on an opera and gone from project. Actually shot somewhat my. -- it would be in QQ which of course are on tours is out do you keel is that true. Well if you could justifiably. Use that firearm in the whatever circumstance since we don't know all the circumstances. Then it has nothing to do with the laser point. You follow -- time. So that incorrect. I'm really appreciate the call I really appreciate each and everyone if you -- for a Robert Jenkins Dave Newman eye opening. Something we need to know all the definition of serious bodily injury in Louisiana law serious bodily injury. Is an injury that results and on consciousness extreme physical pain or protracted and obvious disfigured. -- Thank you Walt stay with everyone we have another show ahead quit feeding the cats -- --